I have Left the UPC Church

[revrandy]

Mich....you are going to be caught in a Religious battle here between two beliefs...

I think the issue is more about relevancy than anything else.... If people don't feel Shepherds care why should they stay where they are not seen, heard or wanted...

The battle you have seems to be two-fold... Your issues with Church Leadership and your husband... and it's tough to be in between the two...

I don't think this situation your facing is a question of beliefs (it may mask itself as that) but more a question of "who really cares about Michlow"...

I think it's normal when you come to a crossroads of choice to question things....

I do think that when one realize's that they were serving men the whole time they thought they were serving God is when we realize that we were possibly wrong.....

I would just encourage you to take this time to truely find God in your situation and begin a process of building a relationship with him.... over what men think or feel... imo...

Start with Prayer and Bible reading... simple...but it works.... and it could lead you to where God wants you to be....

just some thoughts...

[NLYP]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Dan remember Father Time tells all. We are watching you to see how long it takes you to do what the rest have done. I can nearly count them on ONE had that maintains the doctrine after they abandon the standards. Not my views but their views of standards.
Sir I have NEVER question the absoluteness of the Apostolic message. I have questioned myself and others but NEVER the message. Speak for yourself.

First who is "we"....you "we's" might not want to hold your breath on me leaving.
AND I never said you question the truths of the message.

[NLYP]

Originally Posted by revrandy

Mich....you are going to be caught in a Religious battle here between two beliefs...

I think the issue is more about relevancy than anything else.... If people don't feel Shepherds care why should they stay where they are not seen, heard or wanted...

The battle you have seems to be two-fold... Your issues with Church Leadership and your husband... and it's tough to be in between the two...

I don't think this situation your facing is a question of beliefs (it may mask itself as that) but more a question of "who really cares about Michlow"...

I think it's normal when you come to a crossroads of choice to question things....

I do think that when one realize's that they were serving men the whole time they thought they were serving God is when we realize that we were possibly wrong.....

I would just encourage you to take this time to truely find God in your situation and begin a process of building a relationship with him.... over what men think or feel... imo...

Start with Prayer and Bible reading... simple...but it works.... and it could lead you to where God wants you to be....

just some thoughts...

Very Very good my friend.

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Lois already has a forum for all you enlightened folks. You can go over there and lick each other's supposed wounds. As the saying is "You can't handle the truth."

Actually, I do go to Lois' forum. But I must be some kind of masochist, because I keep coming back here and presenting myself as the human punching bag

Originally Posted by ILG

That's right SE, kick them while they're down. That will certainly help.

It's ok Algae, I'm pretty tough!

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Not speaking to Michlow but her encouragers!

However she has been predictable from day one. You can't lay out of church regularly and not wind up in her condition which is sad. If she had heard a unified voice here on telling her to get in a church and be faithful I doubt his would have been her testimony.

Actually, from day 1, if you mean the original FCF days, I did faithfully attend church at that point, but was questioning standards anyway.

Be that as it may, I can just see you writing down my time line to use as a warning in your next sermon.

1. She questioned standards (first step on the slippery slope)

2. She cut her hair (and God stopped listening to her prayers)

3. Then she stopped attending every church service (And she was warned that most serial killers were loners)

4. Then she left church completely (and was warned that doctrine would come next)

5. Then she started questioning doctrine. (and became a reprobate, the end.)

Is that about right?

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by NLYP

Mich...please dont get defensive...I said those things to you in love....
The problem is this....
People come to God and they come through the New Birth Experience.....then they are yolked with a bunch of man made nonsence and expected to think that standards are essentials to a salvational experience.
YOU are right to question outward man made rules and "standards"...question away.....but never question what brought you into the church to begin with.

In respect to Epelys post...herein lies the problem.

They preach the outward donts so hard that the person questions it all when the questioning begins. Just remember this...the Acts 2:38 message is the new birth...water and spirit. Please from my soul dont question that.
I am sorry if your experience with the UPC was one of such that would make you consider throwing it all away. That is sad.

Remember this....you are a child of God....the Bible plan of salvation made you that.....HOLD ON TO THAT!

As far as the other stuff.......let it go...get your Bible...get alone with God...listen to the voice of conviction and let it mold and shape your holiness...not a pulpit!
Listen to your Pastor...then pray and ask God. Dont obey him out of fear or intimidation...but listen and pray.

Epely..as far as your comment...standards first.....doctrine second...my answer is simple...IF you guys would quit corrupting truth with your rules, regulations, dogmas, creeds and man made nonsence and quit preaching it like its part of the cross, and the new birth message and let the Holy Ghost do its thing....they would not question it.
BUT when they see the light of some of this nonsence it causes them to question the whole ball of wax....WE are guilty of the questioning...not them...US!

I'm sorry Bro. Dan. (I can still call you brother, right? ) I didn't mean to sound defensive. But I will admit to the occasional frustration. But you pretty much nailed it on the head in your last paragraph. In the future, I think I'll let you fight my battles, LOL

[Malvaro]

Originally Posted by revrandy

Mich....you are going to be caught in a Religious battle here between two beliefs...

One of the unfortunate things thats happening here is that there are many, many voices are yelling their own message, spoken as being true.... some are "Don't leave the UPC, or you'll go to hell".... "Leave the UPC, they are sheep-beaters anyhow".... "You and God are enough - you don't need a church right now" etc, etc

The constant barrage of all these different voices has the possibility of confusing you from eventually making the "wisest" spiritual decision....

in my opinion, it would be better for you to confidently leave the UPC and re-attach to some truth-preaching, independant church where you can feel the love from the saints and trust the pastor/shepherd than completely leave all churches.... the longer you are completely "away" from a healthy church-environment, the more difficult it will be to ever go back.... don't allow yourself to become a lone-ranger....

I once had an "aged" saint ask me if I knew another struggling saint was openly sinning during the week and coming to church as if nothing happened on Sundays and Wednesdays.... they asked me if it was right that they keep coming to church, while acting in complete disagreeance with the known preaching of the church....

I said, That's great!!! Keeping em coming back into the presence of God.... I don't agree with their sin, but keep em coming to the house of God.... every time they are in God's presence is another chance for God to work in their life.... the fact that they keep coming back is an encouraging sign to me....

my response completely shocked the saint, but it showed my stance toward people.... I hate the sin, but love the sinner.... at outside church activities/events, we may have new-convert or struggling guys that still light up cigs and I'll go over and greet them with a manly handshake.... they know our churches stance regarding that topic, but they'll keep coming back because they know they're loved in our church.... and as a result God is still working in their hearts one service at a time....

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by revrandy

Mich....you are going to be caught in a Religious battle here between two beliefs...

I think the issue is more about relevancy than anything else.... If people don't feel Shepherds care why should they stay where they are not seen, heard or wanted...

The battle you have seems to be two-fold... Your issues with Church Leadership and your husband... and it's tough to be in between the two...

I don't think this situation your facing is a question of beliefs (it may mask itself as that) but more a question of "who really cares about Michlow"...

I think it's normal when you come to a crossroads of choice to question things....

I do think that when one realize's that they were serving men the whole time they thought they were serving God is when we realize that we were possibly wrong.....

I would just encourage you to take this time to truely find God in your situation and begin a process of building a relationship with him.... over what men think or feel... imo...

Start with Prayer and Bible reading... simple...but it works.... and it could lead you to where God wants you to be....

just some thoughts...

Wow, RR, this kinda blew me away. Because you mentioned stuff here that I think I have only mentioned in passing. You either have a good memory, or some awesome discernment going on there.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me.

[CC1]

I am uncomfortable anytime someone is in a period of flux and questioning regarding their belief system.

It is definitely a time of danger. A time in which one can get off in a ditch or so untethered they never make it back to the safe harbor of a church family where they can be ministered to by the five fold ministry.

There is no "joy" that Mich or anybody else might be "looking the liberal way". If she completes this journey still believing the essentials of Christianity and commits herself to a body of believers then all will be well. If she ends up another wandering soul unsure of everything and unable to commit to a pastor and church body then I wish to God she had stopped the pendelum when it had swung back to conservative UPC.

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Malvaro

One of the unfortunate things thats happening here is that there are many, many voices are yelling their own message, spoken as being true.... some are "Don't leave the UPC, or you'll go to hell".... "Leave the UPC, they are sheep-beaters anyhow".... "You and God are enough - you don't need a church right now" etc, etc

The constant barrage of all these different voices has the possibility of confusing you from eventually making the "wisest" spiritual decision....

in my opinion, it would be better for you to confidently leave the UPC and re-attach to some truth-preaching, independant church where you can feel the love from the saints and trust the pastor/shepherd than completely leave all churches.... the longer you are completely "away" from a healthy church-environment, the more difficult it will be to ever go back.... don't allow yourself to become a lone-ranger....

I once had an "aged" saint ask me if I knew another struggling saint was openly sinning during the week and coming to church as if nothing happened on Sundays and Wednesdays.... they asked me if it was right that they keep coming to church, acting in complete disagreeance with the known preaching of the church....

I said, That's great!!! Keeping em coming back into the presence of God.... I don't agree with their sin, but keep em coming to the house of God.... every time they are in God's presence is another chance for God to work in their life.... the fact that they keep coming back is an encouraging sign to me....

my response completely shocked the saint, but it showed my stance toward people.... I hate the sin, but love the sinner.... at outside church activities/events, we may have new-convert or struggling guys that still light up cigs and I'll go over and greet them with a manly handshake.... they know our churches stance regarding that topic, but they'll keep coming back because they know they're loved in our church.... and as a result God is still working in their hearts one service at a time....

That is not an option, as there is nothing in my area that fits that criteria. My choices are similar to Coop's actually. To remain unchurched or to attend an non-apostolic church.