Defend your Faith

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by crakjak

The truth is, verses 17 and 18, were not orginally in the Gospel of Mark, rather it was added later by a scribe. This is fairly well known among biblical scholars.

So I guess the snake handlers and poison drinkers are off the hook.

In fact, all of 16:9-20, according to the sources I checked, were missing from the earliest and best manuscripts. They were likely not from John's own writing, but added later, as you say, apparently to provide a better "ending" to the book. Whether that scribe's addition was inspired is a matter of conjecture, I suppose.

It is also up for debate whether the signs listed (if inspired, or at least an accurate quotation of Jesus) are intended for the church today. Even if they are, they are just that: signs. If one thing is a requirement for all believers, they must all be requirements, and not just the tongues part!

Speaking in tongues is the easiest of the signs to produce on command. Could that be why it is so popular today?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Timmy

In fact, all of 16:9-20, according to the sources I checked, were missing from the earliest and best manuscripts. They were likely not from John's own writing, but added later, as you say, apparently to provide a better "ending" to the book. Whether that scribe's addition was inspired is a matter of conjecture, I suppose.

It is also up for debate whether the signs listed (if inspired, or at least an accurate quotation of Jesus) are intended for the church today. Even if they are, they are just that: signs. If one thing is a requirement for all believers, they must all be requirements, and not just the tongues part!

Speaking in tongues is the easiest of the signs to produce on command. Could that be why it is so popular today?

Mark 16:16
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:11
Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Acts 10:46
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Acts 19:6
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

1 Corinthians 12:10
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:30
Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

1 Corinthians 13:1
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

1 Corinthians 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

1 Corinthians 14:5
I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

1 Corinthians 14:6
Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

1 Corinthians 14:18
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

1 Corinthians 14:21
In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Seemed to be a regular occurrence in the early church, wouldn't you say? It seemed, however to be a spontaneous action of the Holy Spirit, rather than the focus that is placed on it in OP circles today. I do not read of any apostle demanding that any one speak in tongues or else.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Timmy

In fact, all of 16:9-20, according to the sources I checked, were missing from the earliest and best manuscripts. They were likely not from John's own writing, but added later, as you say, apparently to provide a better "ending" to the book. Whether that scribe's addition was inspired is a matter of conjecture, I suppose.

It is also up for debate whether the signs listed (if inspired, or at least an accurate quotation of Jesus) are intended for the church today. Even if they are, they are just that: signs. If one thing is a requirement for all believers, they must all be requirements, and not just the tongues part!

Speaking in tongues is the easiest of the signs to produce on command. Could that be why it is so popular today?

Please explain. Is this in reference to snake handling and poison drinks?

[Sister Alvear]

well, just come to Brazil...do you want an anaconda or what kind of snake?

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

well, just come to Brazil...do you want an anaconda or what kind of snake?

My friend has an Anaconda... that little guy freaks me out. I watched him tease a rat for about 5 minutes.. then the snake had a weird grin on his face.. and he went in for the kill...

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Mark 16:16
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:11
Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Acts 10:46
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Acts 19:6
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

1 Corinthians 12:10
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:30
Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

1 Corinthians 13:1
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

1 Corinthians 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

1 Corinthians 14:5
I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

1 Corinthians 14:6
Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

1 Corinthians 14:18
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

1 Corinthians 14:21
In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Seemed to be a regular occurrence in the early church, wouldn't you say? It seemed, however to be a spontaneous action of the Holy Spirit, rather than the focus that is placed on it in OP circles today. I do not read of any apostle demanding that any one speak in tongues or else.

Yep. I do read that tongues will cease, however. (When that happened or will happen is of course subject to debate!)

[Kutless]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Mark 16:16
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:11
Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

Acts 10:46
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Acts 19:6
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

1 Corinthians 12:10
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:30
Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

1 Corinthians 13:1
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

1 Corinthians 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

1 Corinthians 14:5
I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

1 Corinthians 14:6
Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

1 Corinthians 14:18
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

1 Corinthians 14:21
In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Seemed to be a regular occurrence in the early church, wouldn't you say? It seemed, however to be a spontaneous action of the Holy Spirit, rather than the focus that is placed on it in OP circles today. I do not read of any apostle demanding that any one speak in tongues or else.

You are assuming that the tongues in Corin were a Heavenly language? Or were they actual languges?

The tongues in Acts were understood. The next thing to determine is from what text the new church read and studied, because if it was anything other than the Septuagint I have question.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

Please explain. Is this in reference to snake handling and poison drinks?

It's referring to the use of Mark 16:17 as proof that real believers must speak in tongues. And yes, I was saying that if one thing on the list (tongues) is a requirement, then all the things must be (snakes, poison, etc.).

Some respond to that by saying that one must not drink poison intentionally (I agree, btw!), that it would be tempting God. I don't agree with that. It would not be tempting Him, it would be proving Him! Take Him at His word and see what happens!

Oh, and walk into any hospital, go room to room, lay hands on and voila! They shall recover!

Come to think of it, maybe you should do the hospital proof first. If it fails, don't bother with the poison proof.

[Sister Alvear]

We use more than Mark 16 for tongues.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

We use more than Mark 16 for tongues.

That's correct. The question is whether any of them support the heavenly language type of tongues that is common today. Some point to Romans 8:26, "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." But that doesn't work. The "groanings" cannot be uttered. Also, it is the Spirit praying, not us. Not the Spirit through us. For us.

Another question (which I know how OPs answer) is whether tongues are for today, or have they ceased (1 Corinthians 13:8).