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  #61  
Old 06-26-2007, 01:55 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Originally Posted by Berkeley View Post
She gets raped.. she gets scourged... no one is put to death... he brings a trespass offering... He isn't scourged...

make way for the femi-nazis....
There is no rape involved, bro.

I am still amazed you treat the bible this way, though. Really, bro?
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  #62  
Old 06-26-2007, 01:56 PM
Kutless Kutless is offline
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Bro Blume,

Do you think the early church used the septuagint solely? What about Jewish converts?
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  #63  
Old 06-26-2007, 01:57 PM
berkeley berkeley is offline
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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
There is no rape involved, bro.

I am still amazed you treat the bible this way, though. Really, bro?
I edited that... I may chuckle, but that does not mean that I take the Bible lightly. I'm just trying to understand the OT. Maybe I should stick with the NT.
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  #64  
Old 06-26-2007, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Berkeley View Post
I edited that... I may chuckle, but that does not mean that I take the Bible lightly. I'm just trying to understand the OT. Maybe I should stick with the NT.
Oh. (whew) relief. Thanks for the clarification.
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  #65  
Old 06-26-2007, 01:58 PM
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What about my verses? It never says rape, but it says if you find a female prisoner attractive you can take her home and marry her, and then if you don't like her, it tells you the proper way to "discard" her.
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  #66  
Old 06-26-2007, 01:58 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Originally Posted by Kutless View Post
Bro Blume,

Do you think the early church used the septuagint solely? What about Jewish converts?
I have huge questions about the veracity of the Septuagint to begin with. I wonder if it originated from where it claims it did.

I can provide info on questions regarding it, but I am moving and my material is packed away.
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  #67  
Old 06-26-2007, 01:59 PM
berkeley berkeley is offline
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Originally Posted by Sheltiedad View Post
What about my verses? It never says rape, but it says if you find a female prisoner attractive you can take her home and marry her, and then if you don't like her, it tells you the proper way to "discard" her.
This is prolly gonna sound stupid.. but when I think of the OT, a lot of times I think of cavemen. I don't think they would have been able to grasp much of the law as we see it.
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  #68  
Old 06-26-2007, 02:01 PM
Kutless Kutless is offline
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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
I have huge questions about the veracity of the Septuagint to begin with. I wonder if it originated from where it claims it did.

I can provide info on questions regarding it, but I am moving and my material is packed away.
Aren't you an Author? If yes do you have a link?
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  #69  
Old 06-26-2007, 02:02 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Incorrect.

Lev 19:20 KJV And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.

But this is not speaking of a rape, by the way. It simply speaks of fornication.

Who said this was a rape????
That is the KJV. Im quoting a different translation.

ESV Lev 19:20 "If a man lies sexually with a woman who is a slave, assigned to another man and not yet ransomed or given her freedom, a distinction shall be made. They shall not be put to death, because she was not free;
Lev 19:21 but he shall bring his compensation to the LORD, to the entrance of the tent of meeting, a ram for a guilt offering.

NET Lev 19:20 " 'When a man has sexual intercourse with a woman, although she is a slave woman designated for another man and she has not yet been ransomed, or freedom has not been granted to her, there will be an obligation to compensate. They must not be put to death, because she was not free.
Lev 19:21 He must bring his guilt offering to the Lord at the doorway of the Meeting Tent, a guilt offering ram,

Lev 19:20 "If a man lies carnally with a woman who is a slave, betrothed to another man and not yet ransomed or given her freedom, an inquiry shall be held. They shall not be put to death, because she was not free;
Lev 19:21 but he shall bring a guilt offering for himself to the LORD, to the door of the tent of meeting, a ram for a guilt offering.

This word used for scourging in the KJV means bascially an animal offering or sacrifice

Hebrew Word: baqar
Strong's Cross Reference: 1239
Definition: Seek, inquire (only in the Piel stem). (ASV and RSV generally similar except Pro_20:25 where RSV renders reflect. )

Derivative TWOT Number: 274a
Derivative Transliteration: baqar
Derivative Strong's Cross Reference: 1241
Derivative Definition: cattle, herd, ox.

biqqoret. Compensation, scourging(?) (ASV "punishment"; RSV "inquiry.") If one may judge from an Akkadian root baqaru instead of baqar, compensation is to be paid in a case involving a man and a betrothed, though unmarried, slave girl (Lev_19:20; the only occurrence of the term-see M. Noth, Leviticus).

baqar is found seven times. Much more frequent are synonyms baqash "seek," "secure," and darash "seek," "study," "seek (i.e. pray to) a deity." .

baqar, it is suggested, from the Arabic cognate, originally meant "split," "divide" and hence "discern." Its biblical use is largely in worship contexts, e.g. "checking" for ritual purity (Lev_13:36; cl Lev_27:33) or "inquiry," in the sense of meditation, possibly self-searching (Psa_27:4; cf. 2Ki_16:15). Only in Ezek does baqar refer to search of animals (Eze_34:11-12).

In the Aramaic, beqar, found only in Ezr, refers to "investigation," chiefly of records.

baqar. Cattle, herd, ox. (ASV and RSV Similar.) baqar (180 times), often used collectively, is doubtfully to be linked with baqar (see above) "to split," more particularly "to plow." It is used in the Mari letters, in Phoenician, Aramaic, and Arabic. Though baqar refers to draught animals such as oxen, the term is used for domestic cattle, including bulls, cows, heifers, and calves. baqar is distinguished from "flock" (son) which denotes small cattle such as sheep and goats. son and baqar often denote all domesticated animals. behema also refers to livestock generally including sheep and goats.

For the peoples of the ancient near middle east, including the Hebrews, cattle were a form of wealth. Indeed for the semi-nomadic patriarchs, wealth was measured in cattle. Hamor an Shechem of the hill country had cattle (Gen_34:28) and so did the patriarchs such as Abraham who were rich in cattle (Gen_13:2-7). Isaac was envied by the Philistines for his cattle (Gen_26:12-14). Nathan's parable described the rich man as one who owned baqar (2Sa_12:2; cf. Ecc_2:7). Herds of cattle were a prize in war (Num_31:33; 1Sa_27:9). In patriarchal times at least, cattle were given at the time of covenant making (Gen_21:27-31). baqar are to be restored fivefold when stolen (Exo_22:1). Fertility among cattle was obviously important and the Canaanite gods, worshiped as fertility bringers, held an appeal to the Hebrews for that reason. But the Scriptures insist that increase of cattle is due to the Lord's blessing (Gen_24:35; Job_42:12).

As wealth, baqar could be given as gifts (Gen_21:27). As a gesture of generosity Abraham prepared a calf for the angelic messenger (Gen_18:7). Joseph exchanged bread for cattle (Gen_47:17). David had royal herds (1Ch_27:29). baqar were important in stewardship. A tithe of the herd (baqar) was holy to the Lord (Lev_27:32). Of interest are the tallies recorded in Num_7:12ff. For Israel the tithe could hardly be an exclusively private affair about which the community was uninformed. The revival in Hezekiah's time brought a sense of stewardship and the voluntary gifts of baqar (2Ch_31:6).


Then look at the context again

Lev 19:20 And whoever lies with a woman with semen, and she is a slave-girl, betrothed to a husband and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her, there shall be an inquest. They shall not be put to death, because she was not free.
Lev 19:21 And he shall bring his trespass offering to Jehovah, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, even a ram for a trespass offering.
Lev 19:22 And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before Jehovah for his sin which he has done. And the sin which he has done shall be forgiven him.
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Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
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  #70  
Old 06-26-2007, 02:03 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Deu 21:10-14 KJV When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, (11) And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; (12) Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; (13) And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. (14) And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.
First of all she shall not be treated like a slave... "make merchandise of her". And releasing her was through a bill of divorcement. In her case and the man's, there was kindness involved. He would take her to wife, and she was allowed time to determine if she would return affection to him. If not, this was part of the reason for her release. And he could do the same after time, but by divorce alone.
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