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  #81  
Old 06-26-2007, 07:17 PM
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Brett Prince Brett Prince is offline
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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
None! I have resources that show where alleged contradictions and so forth are no contradictions at all. Brethren, you need to research the philosophies behind the two streams of texts. Y'all are running all around it.
I've done the research, and I am not trusting yours. My resources were both Apostolic and non. They both agreed.
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  #82  
Old 06-26-2007, 07:21 PM
berkeley berkeley is offline
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Originally Posted by Brett Prince View Post
I've done the research, and I am not trusting yours. My resources were both Apostolic and non. They both agreed.
What did I miss??
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  #83  
Old 06-26-2007, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brett Prince View Post
I've done the research, and I am not trusting yours. My resources were both Apostolic and non. They both agreed.
I do not ask you to trust my research. But you have evidently not researched the philosophies behind the two streams of texts that have arrived to us today. Regardless of what anyone from the Alexandrian group of contaminated texts says about God's Word remaining today, the philosophy behind the Nestle's text is corrupt and proposes there is no word of God left for us today.
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  #84  
Old 06-26-2007, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KwaiQ View Post
If the ESV was based of the massoretic text and the textus receptus, I'd use it.

Right. They're the two texts we ought to ensure are the sources for the translations we should be using.
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  #85  
Old 06-26-2007, 07:30 PM
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KwaiQ KwaiQ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
I do not ask you to trust my research. But you have evidently not researched the philosophies behind the two streams of texts that have arrived with us today. Regardless of what anyone from the Alexandrian group of contaminated texts says about God's Word remaining today, the philosophy behind the Nestle's text is corrupt and proposes there is no word of God left for us today.
Brief posts about what I've researched...

An interesting read about Wescott and Hort, two of my favorite heretics.

The Anglican Spiritualists

The perplexity and inquisitiveness of the age had led to the formation of numerous Spiritualist societies. One of the early pioneers of Spiritualist inquiry was the Ghost Society at the University of Cambridge, England. The Founders of Psychical Research records the stated objective of the Cambridge Ghost Society:

"In 1851, was founded at Cambridge a Society to 'conduct a serious and earnest inquiry into the nature of the phenomena vaguely called supernatural,' and a number of distinguished persons became members." (20)
The Ghost Society is also described in the biography of one of its founding members, The Life and Letters of Fenton John Anthony Hort, by Arthur Hort.
"Two other societies were started in both of which Hort seems to have been the moving spirit the other called by its members "The Ghostly Guild." The object was to collect and classify authenticated instances of what are now called 'psychical phenomena' the 'Bogie Club' as scoffers called it, aroused a certain amount of derision, and even some alarm; it was apparently born too soon."

The Society for Psychical Research: An Outline of its History and the Life of Edward White Benson by his son, Arthur, present further documentation of the distinguished founders of the Cambridge Ghost Society:
"Among the numerous persons and groups who in the middle of the nineteenth century were making enquiries into psychical occurrences may be mentioned a society from which our own can claim direct descent. In the Life of Edward White Benson, Archbishop of Canterbury, by his son, A. C. Benson, will be found, under the year 1851-2, the following paragraph:
'Among my father's diversions at Cambridge was the foundation of a 'Ghost Society,' the forerunner of the Psychical Society [meaning the S.P.R.] for the investigation of the supernatural. Lightfoot, Westcott and Hort were among the members. He was then, as always, more interested in psychical phenomena than he cared to admit.'

"Lightfoot and Westcott both became bishops, and Hort Professor of Divinity. The S.P.R. has hardly lived up to the standard of ecclesiastical eminence set by the parent society."

Canon J.B. Lightfoot, Bishop B.F. Westcott, and Professor of Divinity F.J.A. Hort also served on the Revision Committee for the English Revised Version of 1881. Drs. Westcott and Hort produced a New Greek Text and created a new theory of textual criticism for this revision of the Authorized Version of 1611.

As an undergraduate at Cambridge, B.F. Westcott also founded the Hermes Club, which he named after the Graeco-Egyptian deity, Hermes Trismegistus. Subsequent Hermetic societies founded by other Spiritualists would become famous in England - one organized in 1884 by Anna Kingsford and Edward Maitland, which was in close contact with the Theosophical Society, and The Order of the Golden Dawn founded by MacGregor Mathers and Wynn Westcott. James Webb has elucidated the meaning of Hermes:

"In the history of the Secret Traditions the Hermetica became important because of the great value place on them in Renaissance Europe; in their context they are significant because they typify this magical attitude to life. The fact that Hermes is taken here as the founder of astrology, alchemy, or magic, the revealer of occult correspondences, is useful to emphasize that European attempts at practicing astrology, alchemy, or magic, often called the "Hermetic sciences," have their origins in the same period of religious ferment as saw the flourishing of the Mysteries and the birth of NeoPlatonism the philosophical position of the Hermetica, with its doctrine that matter is evil and to be escaped, can be paralleled by the Gnostics."

In her Theosophical Glossary, Madame H.P. Blavatsky also reported the extensive use of Hermetic doctrines in Gnostic writings:
"Hermetic. Any doctrine or writing connected with the esoteric teachings of Hermes . . . Though mostly considered as spurious, nevertheless the Hermetic writings were highly prized by St. Augustine, Lactantius, Cyril and others. In the words of Mr. J. Bonwick, 'They are more or less touched up by the Platonic philosophers among the early Christians (such as Origin and Clemens Alexandrinus) who sought to substantiate their Christian arguments by appeals to these heathen and revered writings, though they could not resist the temptation of making them say a little too much.' Though represented by some clever and interested writers as teaching pure monotheism, the Hermetic or Trismegistic books are, nevertheless, purely pantheistic . . . "

A contemporary of B.F. Westcott, Mme. Blavatsky classified Westcott with the Gnostic philosophers, even laughing him to scorn in her channeled work, Isis Unveiled, for his credulity of The Pastor of Hermas. It seems that Anglican scholars gave the weight of Scripture to apocryphal literature from the occult underground with which she was familiar: "In their immoderate desire to find evidence for the authenticity of the New Testament, the best men, the most erudite scholars even among Protestant divines, but too often fall into deplorable traps. We cannot believe that such a learned commentator as Canon Westcott could have left himself in ignorance as to Talmudistic and purely kabalistic writings. How then is it that we find him quoting, with such serene assurance as presenting 'striking analogies to the Gospel of St. John,' passages from the work of The Pastor of Hermas, which are complete sentences from kabalistic literature?"

If this isn't interesting, just consider the fact that almost all modern versions of the bible base their translation endevours off of the Wescott/Hort Greek New Testament.

KJV and NKJV for me. All others I use and regard as a 'commentary' only, and I don't consider them to be the word of God.

That's just me.
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  #86  
Old 06-26-2007, 07:30 PM
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KwaiQ KwaiQ is offline
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Quick Reference Links:
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~jbeggsoc/TTShome.html
Has good articles listed on the right hand column

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Bible
Good History of the KJV

http://1611kjv.dtison.net/info.html?...6844035d78a52f
An article supporting KJV

If you like the KJV like I do, here's a store for KJV stuff.
http://www.thekjvstore.com/

I also have a power point on the subject that I made using a variety of resources.

PM me if you want it.


New Age Bible Versions
Gail A. Riplinger
ISBN: 0-9635845-0-2
Published by AV Publications Corp.
PO Box 280 Ararat, VA 24053
1-800-435-4535

Interesting book, although the author is a bit rude in her defense of the KJV.
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  #87  
Old 06-26-2007, 07:31 PM
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KwaiQ KwaiQ is offline
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Some people, mostly die-hard KJV only people, say that the NKJV is bad too. Gail Riplinger is one of those people. They even go so far as to say that the three interlocking ovals that the NKJV has on it's front cover or inside in the credits area is a Pagan symbol, and the NKJV is just as bad as the other modern translations. They say it's all one big conspiracy by satan or satanists to make the church fall away and not know God's true word, the KJV.

I am not as bold as they are. I don't think of it as a conspiracy. I've looked into this KJV-only controversy for the last two years now. It started with reading on the internet. Then I bought G.A. Riplinger's book (posted above) on the subject. I then researched her claims made in the book on the internet, trying to get as much non-biased information as I could obtain.

Out of all of my research, I came up with my two beliefs on the matter.

1. Almost all modern translations (one exception: NKJV) use Wescott/Hort's GNT for the basis of their translation. The manuscripts Wescott/Hort used to translate their GNT were suspect to the influences of Gnosticism and Greek Philosophy of the day. Wescott/Hort's reputations were shady to say the least.

2. Erasmus had a better translation using 5000+ manuscripts and manuscript fragments that were available. His GNT is the basis for KJV and previous translations. The idea that KJV is hard to read is not an issue for most modern printings of the KJV because most publishers put notes defining archaic words or archaic definitions used in the KJV. Erasmus was a Roman Catholic all his life, but disagreed with the Catholics on several of their positions.

That is what I found out. I really have no strong emotions about this one way or the other. If you like the AMP or ESV, read it. That's fine by me and they have some really good updated translations of the verses.

I personally use the modern translations, esp the NET and ESV to help clarify difficult passages. I study, memorize, and preach from the KJV, only consulting other versions if I need clarification on something. My favorite tool to use is a hebrew/greek/english litteral translation. The bible is written in the greek/hebrew with the english definitions written in small print above the greek/hebrew words. I am studying both languages now. My favorite lexicon to use is Thayer's Lexicon. Second favorite is Strong's Concordance.
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  #88  
Old 06-26-2007, 07:34 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Amen, KwaiQ.

There are nutcases who go too far with the KJV-only thing, like Peter Ruckman. That dude thinks that certain actually innocent idiosyncracies of the 1611 KJV were God Inspired, such as the term used for the Greek PASCHA being translated EASTER. Ruckman proposed God inspired the KJV men to put that since Herod would not have celebrated Passover.
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  #89  
Old 06-26-2007, 07:34 PM
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KwaiQ KwaiQ is offline
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And yes, I know Thayer's is based off of Nestle/Aland; JPS Greek New Testaments...
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  #90  
Old 06-26-2007, 07:37 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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The following Bibles are translated from the Textus Receptus and Majority Text:

Tyndale New Testament 1526-1530 - http://faithofgod.org/EnglishC/
Miles Coverdale's Bible 1535 - Psalms from Coverdale's Bible , the whole Bible in old english spelling & bad controls
Matthew's Bible 1537 - Luke 11:2-4
The Great Bible 1539 - Luke 11:2-4
Geneva Bible 1557-1560 - With verses that have notes only , all the gospels & Romans only , the whole Bible but in old english spelling & bad controls
The Bishops' Bible 1568 - download all of the New Testament , the whole Bible in old english spelling & bad controls
King James Version type correction dates - http://www.cforc.com/kjv/
Webster Bible 1833 - http://www.awmach.org/BWB/dochome.htm
Young's Literal Translation 1862-1898 - http://www.bible.org/public/youngslt/youngslt.htm
New King James Version 1979 - based off of KJV and the TR, but is reported to side with the Minority Text when the Minority Text differs with the TR in the notes - http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/...h&version=NKJV
The 21st Century King James Version 1994 - http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/b...nguage=english
Literal Translation of the Bible 1995 - http://www.litvonline.com/
Revised Webster Bible 1995 - I don't know anything about this version, it seems of good quality http://faithofgod.org/EnglishC/
Modern King James Version 1999 - http://www.mkjvonline.com/
Analytical Literal Translation 1999 - http://www.dtl.org/alt/main/nt.htm
English Majority Text Version 2002 - http://www.emtvonline.com/
World English Bible not yet fully released - http://ebible.org/bible/web/
Hebrew Names Version not yet fully released - http://ebible.org/bible/hnv/

Other versions, but may have problems:

Scholarly translations:

Wesley's NT 1755 - based off KJV Whole NT with bad controls
Darby Bible 1884,1890 - based on the TR, but uses other texts as well http://bible.christiansunite.com/dbyindex.shtml
A Conservative Version 2001 - The OT is based on the American Standard Version,... the NT, the author has chosen an edition compiled by Maurice A. Robinson and William G. Pierpont (of the Textus Receptus tradition)
Easy-Reading, KJV, Evidence Bible 2001 - "The archaic old English words have been replaced with their modern equivalents, without altering the meaning of the King James text." Psalms, Proverbs, & New Testament in PDF

Not translations, but professional:

New Geneva Study Bible - now renamed as: The Reformation Study Bible - 1995 - this is a "Study Bible" and not a translation. They use the NKJV and have lots of notes and teachings centered around the Reformation theologies. Some of these teachings may have been changed since the Reformation. While I tend to like the NKJV, the teachings in this version are BAD! Here are some reviews of these teachings from this Bible:
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org...med/geneva.htm
http://www.crisispub.com/calvinism/pages/StudyBible.htm
http://www.revelationwebsite.co.uk/i...ix/infants.htm
Defined King James Bible 1998 - This is not a translation, but only defines old words for modern readers in the notes. This Bible may promote King James onlyism. - a PDF view of 3 pages


Doubt the scholastic work, (may or may not be professional):

David Lawrie's NT 1998 - http://www.angelfire.com/mp/david/index.html
American King James Version before 1999 - someone took the KJV and hand changed old english into new english, no grammar has been changed - http://www.angelfire.com/al4/allenkc/akjv/
Updated King James Version 2000 - Someone wrote a program to translate old english words into modern words. Then used that to change the KJV. Only 6% was changed. They didn't change any text, just let the program do it's thing. http://www.geocities.com/updatedkjv/
V.W. Edition 2003 - "... from out of the NKJV, LITV and KJV texts, Proof-Reading, CORRECTING the ERRORS ... with the aid of the tools that scholarship has already provided..." http://www.a-voice.org/bible-vw/bible.htm
King James Clarified 2003 - It is theologically identical to the NT in the KJV, but many of the words have been updated for easier understanding. http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/kjc/kjvc.html
Revised Young's Literal Translation work in progress - even YOU can work on this translation - http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/rylt/rylt.html
Sacred Name Bible(s) - These are not "real" translations. They are usually translations from Public Domain Bibles like KJV or Darby. They replace words like Jesus & God, with transliterations like YHWH, IhsouV, Yeshua, Elohim...
Here is a link, exposing the error of these Bibles: http://www.sacrednamemovement.com/snbibles.htm
Sacred Name Bible 2002 - http://www.sacrednamebible.com/index.htm
Exegeses Bible 1999 - a sacred name Bible, supposedly a real translation using the same text the KJV is from http://www.exegesesbibles.org/
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