San Diego UPC Choir TEARS IT UP with Michael English and Mark Lowry

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by Pianoman

I'm not offend at all! I just don't know what b-n-c means!

B-n-C means Ball-n-Chain

[CC1]

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

I'm glad you're perfect . . . Really, I am. I'm glad you've never done something wrong only to turn around and do something else wrong.

Can't say that myself. I've made boneheaded decisions, messed up, got right only to turn left again and had to start all over.

I, too, had the pharisees around me that pointed (as you have) to the faults and inconsistencies in my life. Thankfully I'm blessed to be stubborn. Thankfully I have this way of learning to ignore the ones who rejoice in failures and shortcomings. Thankfully I never gave up, though that would have been so easy to do at times. Thankfully there were some sincere Christians that picked me up, helped brush me off and led me back to the cross.

I knew the drug news would be brought out. Unfortunately artists and people like Michael live in very open, glass houses. Their mistakes aren't just reminded of them by the condemnation they feel in their hearts, but it's the splash on the front page of the paper; the lead story in the 10 o'clock news; the fodder of late-night shows and comedians.

It's unfortunate that one's who profess themselves to be Christians are among the stone-throwers.

Tell me, CC1, are you without sin?

Yes, Michael was addicted to prescription drugs; and yes he obtained a large amount of those drugs illegally - though I don't believe the number mentioned is accurate.

What's lost in this condemning diatribe against him is that he's not alone in this addiction. Others have been addicted to the same thing.

One man we all know, Rush Limbaugh, was addicted and illegally received some amount of these drugs.

I believe it was around the same time that he was going through a divorce and the loss of hearing in his ear.

Imagine this, if you can...though I'm sure your life is perfect and you've never had problems like Michael.

He was on the top as a Christian artist, just having swept several Dove Awards;
Within a week that all comes crashing down with his confession of the affair and pregnancy;
Then Jordan miscarries;
He's dropped from every so-called Christian radio station, retailer and his record label;
There's the no-doubt, ugly divorce; and
Suddenly the man who had it all was left with nothing.

If memory is right, I believe he was legally prescribed these drugs before becoming addicted.

Just as Rush Limbaugh...

Just as some church folk I know...

The drugs weren't illegal; they're used by millions of people, including some apostolics I know.

Several years ago I was hospitalized for over a week and was prescribed the same pills RL was given. I never became addicted, never have needed to get another prescription to them.

At the same time, there's a couple other things that helped me not to become addicted to them: first and foremost is I have something that ME and RL didn't, the Holy Ghost inside me; second is I've never faced the hurt and despair I imagine they've felt during those times.

Don't be so quick to throw stones at the man. Yes, he was wrong. No, I don't applaud or approve of what he's done in the past . . . but it doesn't matter to God how many times a person falls; what really matters to God is how many times that person gets back up.

JMO

You are one sick puppy if you think the vast majority of christians "falter" with things like adultery, drug abuse, etc.

Of course I am not perfect but I get sick of people like you and Sandra trying to pass off repeated major moral failures by people as something we should just ignore and treat them as if nothing happened.

As I said I hope his umpteenth repentance is true and he does good and I will treat him kindly if I ever meet him but don't try and tell me I have to support him by watching him. listening to him. buying his CD's, etc.

It is crazy for you to compare the kind of repeated sins this guy committs with the stumbling all christians make with living out our Christian walk.

Let this bozo go without a major moral failure for a few years and demonstrate the life he is claiming and I might become a fan again. In the meantime I have no biblical compulsion to be a fan.

[chaotic_resolve]

Originally Posted by CC1

You are one sick puppy if you think the vast majority of christians "falter" with things like adultery, drug abuse, etc.

Did I say "vast majority." I've looked over my post a few times to find where you get that I said "vast majority," and it's not in there.

I said "The drugs weren't illegal; they're used by millions of people, including some apostolics I know"

How you got "vast majority" from "some," I'd like to know. Seriously though, do you do this often - take quotes that far off base? I'm laughing only because I can always point back to my post and to what I actually wrote. I doubt I'd be laughing, though, if I wasn't able to do that.

I think you'd be surprised with how many "Christians" are hooked on mood-altering drugs for depression, etc. Junk like Prozac and other drugs . . . not to mention pain-killers. I'm not condemning it, I'm just saying before you condemn and drag out M.E. for getting legal drugs by illegal means, you should understand that the drugs weren't illegal for one, and that there are millions of people who use those drugs, including some apostolics. In fact, saying that "some" apostolics use them is probably a drastic understatement.

Originally Posted by CC1

Of course I am not perfect but I get sick of people like you and Sandra trying to pass off repeated major moral failures by people as something we should just ignore and treat them as if nothing happened.

"This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope. It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness."

It's not that I pass off sin as being okay. However, this is his past CC1, and no matter how many times he fell (in his past), or how he fell, he's able to receive the grace and mercy of God.

I don't understand why Christians are so quick to kill their wounded. Why they beat to death their own afflicted. Why is it that some Christians are quicker to side with the devil and remind people of their past; dredge up the blood-washed (by Christ) past, use it to condemn and accuse that person.

I don't aim this personally at you . . . it's for anyone and everyone who dares use a persons past against them, be careful when doing so . . . because persons who do so are fighting against God; literally punching God in the face, spitting at Him and saying that His grace, mercy, forgiveness and blood are not good enough to cover anothers sin.

Not only that, but those who do so align themselves with the devil, whom the Bible says is the accuser of the brethren.

Originally Posted by CC1

As I said I hope his umpteenth repentance is true and he does good and I will treat him kindly if I ever meet him but don't try and tell me I have to support him by watching him. listening to him. buying his CD's, etc.

Did I say, even once that you needed to support him by "watching him, listening to him, or buying his CD's, etc?"

Look at what I wrote, I did not. I wouldn't be so foolish as to demand such. I'd be to demand someone be a fan of anyone.

Again, it doesn't matter how many times he's repented. Where in the Bible is there a limit on how much grace and mercy God gives? Show me one place in the Bible where God tossed a person out with the trash because of their multiple failures and I'll show you thousands, even hundreds of thousands of "Christians" who are lost and destined for hell, if there truly is a limit to the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ.

Read that scripture in Lamentations again . . . each and every morning, God's mercy and compassion start all over again. No matter how much a person goes through the mercy and compassion of God, it's constantly being renewed every morning.

"For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease. Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground; Yet through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant."

What an incredible promise. Look at the words here . . . it's cut down, the root - waxing old and dead in the ground. Yet even then, after all that death . . . if that tree can get some water, it can live again.

"A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench:"

This is one of my favorite scriptures. I love the visualization in these words . . . Bruised reed, bent and hanging down. Regarded as useless and thrown away by most, yet God won't break it. Smoking flax (wick). The flame is gone. Warmth is leaving. Yet if someone could gently breathe on it, it could re-ignite a flame.

These scriptures show God's unending love for M.E., and anyone else who is bruised - even dead. If they can pick themself back up and get back to the open arms of Jesus Christ, where there is life . . . they can live again.

And, as would be written in the Bible, woe be unto anyone who would dare throw the blood-washed past back in their face. Only the devil, or those with him, does that.

Originally Posted by CC1

It is crazy for you to compare the kind of repeated sins this guy committs with the stumbling all christians make with living out our Christian walk.

Since when did sin have degrees? We've all sinned. You think his adultery is worse than a lie? Worse than rebellion? Lust? Envy? Pride or arrogance? I won't even mention the drug use since they're not illegal drugs, but rather drugs that some here on this board may have even used.

Originally Posted by CC1

Let this bozo go without a major moral failure for a few years and demonstrate the life he is claiming and I might become a fan again. In the meantime I have no biblical compulsion to be a fan.

You can have your little conditions for being a fan . . . but I hope you don't place these same conditions on him in his walk with God.

You have every right to not be a fan and all...that's fine. Just leave the past where's it at . . . in the past. God will judge M.E., as He will all of us.

Prayer, not condemnation or accusations, is what M.E. needs.

[chaotic_resolve]

I don't mean to offend anyone, including CC1, with the post above. It's nothing personal against anyone . . . I just get frustrated with those among us that would rather kill off or deny a healing touch to those who have fallen, whether one time or a multitude of times.

JMO

[CC1]

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

I don't mean to offend anyone, including CC1, with the post above. It's nothing personal against anyone . . . I just get frustrated with those among us that would rather kill off or deny a healing touch to those who have fallen, whether one time or a multitude of times.

JMO

I just get frustrated with those among us who pass off repeated massive moral failures as something we should just ignore.

You have done the exact things in your posts you accuse me of. None of my statements ever condemmed Michael English to hell. I said I hope he has sincerely straigtened out,etc.

Let me ask you a hypothetical question to test your seeming position that no matter what the nature and magnitude of repeated moral failures are we should still treat a person as if they never happened (or never repeatedly kept on happening);

If a pedophile sex offender prays through and gets saved do you treat him exactly as you would any other person praying through? Do you allow him to teach Sunday School? Do you allow him around children unsupervised? Is there at least any period of time where you would want to observe that he indeed has changed?

The point you miss about people like ME is that there is a price to pay for your sin. God forgives you but the sin has consequences. In the case of fornication or adultery many times the consequence is a child. God forgives the sexual sin but that child is the result of that sin and must be dealt with as a responsibility for the parties involved. Doesn't mean God has forgiven any less or that the person is any less saved.

Such is the same with those in ministry or christian entertainment. When they have major moral failures they pay the price of having lost their credibility.

There is absolutely nothing wrong in the world with that happening. Perhaps over a sustained period of time of walking upright they can gain much of that credibility back. They should rejoice in the fact they are forgiven and saved and other christians ought to treat them with love, dignity, and respect.

Just because they are forigven and other christians ought to believe and accept that is not the same as saying that other christians should act as if nothing ever happened and keep on supporting their careers or ministries.

That is the only point I made. You are the one misconstruing things by insinuating I am somehow being unfair or mean to ME or not accepting his position in Christ.

I think one of the worst things in the world is for high profile people in Christianity to have major moral failures and people to just act like it never happened as your posts suggest to me.

[Monkeyman]

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

I'm glad you're perfect . . . Really, I am. I'm glad you've never done something wrong only to turn around and do something else wrong.

Can't say that myself. I've made boneheaded decisions, messed up, got right only to turn left again and had to start all over.

I, too, had the pharisees around me that pointed (as you have) to the faults and inconsistencies in my life. Thankfully I'm blessed to be stubborn. Thankfully I have this way of learning to ignore the ones who rejoice in failures and shortcomings. Thankfully I never gave up, though that would have been so easy to do at times. Thankfully there were some sincere Christians that picked me up, helped brush me off and led me back to the cross.

I knew the drug news would be brought out. Unfortunately artists and people like Michael live in very open, glass houses. Their mistakes aren't just reminded of them by the condemnation they feel in their hearts, but it's the splash on the front page of the paper; the lead story in the 10 o'clock news; the fodder of late-night shows and comedians.

It's unfortunate that one's who profess themselves to be Christians are among the stone-throwers.

Tell me, CC1, are you without sin?

Yes, Michael was addicted to prescription drugs; and yes he obtained a large amount of those drugs illegally - though I don't believe the number mentioned is accurate.

What's lost in this condemning diatribe against him is that he's not alone in this addiction. Others have been addicted to the same thing.

One man we all know, Rush Limbaugh, was addicted and illegally received some amount of these drugs.

I believe it was around the same time that he was going through a divorce and the loss of hearing in his ear.

Imagine this, if you can...though I'm sure your life is perfect and you've never had problems like Michael.

He was on the top as a Christian artist, just having swept several Dove Awards;
Within a week that all comes crashing down with his confession of the affair and pregnancy;
Then Jordan miscarries;
He's dropped from every so-called Christian radio station, retailer and his record label;
There's the no-doubt, ugly divorce; and
Suddenly the man who had it all was left with nothing.

If memory is right, I believe he was legally prescribed these drugs before becoming addicted.

Just as Rush Limbaugh...

Just as some church folk I know...

The drugs weren't illegal; they're used by millions of people, including some apostolics I know.

Several years ago I was hospitalized for over a week and was prescribed the same pills RL was given. I never became addicted, never have needed to get another prescription to them.

At the same time, there's a couple other things that helped me not to become addicted to them: first and foremost is I have something that ME and RL didn't, the Holy Ghost inside me; second is I've never faced the hurt and despair I imagine they've felt during those times.

Don't be so quick to throw stones at the man. Yes, he was wrong. No, I don't applaud or approve of what he's done in the past . . . but it doesn't matter to God how many times a person falls; what really matters to God is how many times that person gets back up.

JMO

I disagree with 1 point of your post......the "JMO". Its not opinion...its WORD! Good job bro, and praise God for His mercy in your/my life!!!

[chaotic_resolve]

Originally Posted by CC1

I just get frustrated with those among us who pass off repeated massive moral failures as something we should just ignore.

I'm not saying to ignore it. I'm saying once it's been repented of and in the past ---- leave it there. That's all. What good does it do to bring up things from the past? Nothing. It does no good whatsoever. It only causes harm.

Originally Posted by CC1

You have done the exact things in your posts you accuse me of. None of my statements ever condemmed Michael English to hell. I said I hope he has sincerely straigtened out,etc.

I apologize if I've taken what you've written wrongly. I never thought you were condemning him to hell; but my contention was with the bringing up the past as though it's not been forgiven.

Originally Posted by CC1

Let me ask you a hypothetical question to test your seeming position that no matter what the nature and magnitude of repeated moral failures are we should still treat a person as if they never happened (or never repeatedly kept on happening);

If a pedophile sex offender prays through and gets saved do you treat him exactly as you would any other person praying through? Do you allow him to teach Sunday School? Do you allow him around children unsupervised? Is there at least any period of time where you would want to observe that he indeed has changed?

I disagree with the premise of the question. I also disagree that I've insinuated that we should treat them as though nothing happened. Of course something happened and needs to be addressed. Again, what I'm more concerned and take issue with is dredging up the past once it's been repented of and put under the blood.

The scenario described above is no where near what we've been discussing with adultery and drugs. I will answer the question though, since it bugs me when I ask a question and it doesn't get answered . . . *grin* . . .

To your description, no he wouldn't teach Sunday School. And I likely wouldn't allow him unsupervised around children. However, I would allow him in other areas of ministry and I would not, if he truly repented . . . I would not bring his past up against him. I would do all I could to help ensure that he was able to get victory over the sin, deliverance from that spirit and that he live a productive Christian life.

Originally Posted by CC1

The point you miss about people like ME is that there is a price to pay for your sin. God forgives you but the sin has consequences. In the case of fornication or adultery many times the consequence is a child. God forgives the sexual sin but that child is the result of that sin and must be dealt with as a responsibility for the parties involved. Doesn't mean God has forgiven any less or that the person is any less saved.

I understand there's a price to pay. We're in agreement that yes, there is a terrible price to pay. However, where I would disagree with you is to whom or how the price is paid. We're not his judge. He doesn't answer to us, but to God. He's paid a price . . . an incredible price. Would you agree that he's paid a terrible price as consequences of his actions? He's lost his credibility, his fortune, fame, family, integrity. What more would you have him do? What more would he have to go through in order for you to say, okay, you've paid enough for your sins?

God's forgiven him, and yes even with the forgiveness there's still consequences. However, those consequences shouldn't be in the form of other Christians reminding them of the past.

Originally Posted by CC1

Just because they are forigven and other christians ought to believe and accept that is not the same as saying that other christians should act as if nothing ever happened and keep on supporting their careers or ministries.

That is the only point I made. You are the one misconstruing things by insinuating I am somehow being unfair or mean to ME or not accepting his position in Christ.

Again, we don't act as though nothing happened. However, once the past is repented of, it's over. God's forgotten it, it's been washed in His blood, let it stay in the past.

I don't mean to insinuate that you're being unfair by not accepting him. I just don't like the digging up of the past as though it's the present and will be the future.

Originally Posted by CC1

I think one of the worst things in the world is for high profile people in Christianity to have major moral failures and people to just act like it never happened as your posts suggest to me.

I'll have to agree and disagree here. *grin* I agree that it's a terrible thing for a Christian to have a moral failure...but not the worst thing in the world. I disagree that I'm insinuation that we act as though nothing happened. If you'd like and it would please the people, put the sinner in "time out." But again, leave the past alone.

Bottom line points:

• Sin is sin...
• Sin separates people from God...
• God hates sin...
• God loves people...
• Repentance bridges the "sin chasm" between God and man...
• God forgives...
• God restores...
• God forgets...
• The past is the past and can never be changed...
• Bringing up the past only causes harm, never good...
• We should do all we can to help the fallen, regardless of the number of falls...

Originally Posted by Polaris

Right. He's not judging you, Sister Murphey...he simply asked you in a previous post whether or not your were smoking dope because your opinion didn't reflect his. Don't feel bad...he also said my post about the issue was "sad", then posted emoticons laughing about it. As to whether or not this sad episode was "annointed", I don't care if the angels sang in Heaven...it shouldn't have happened in the first place.

None of us has God in a bottle, and sincere-hearted people (even those who don't yet have a full understanding of the oneness of God or the Biblical new-birth experience) can reach out and worship God. That's not the point. The point is, we want to bring these people the rest of the way in...not pat them on the back while they're continuing in false doctrine and treat them like "I'm okay--you're okay". I'm not saying to reject these people...but to put on a public ministry effort WITH them? That's pathetic.

Yeah, I know it. Liberals don't judge, only cons or ultracons do.

And I can assure you, these kinds of exchanges don't make me feel bad, they make me sad.

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

Sister Murphy....If you were able to watch the whole DVD or more than what you have watched you will see people speaking in tongues in the choir and I believe in the audience. Keep in mind that there were denominations there that do not follow the speaking in tongues thing. When the anointed ones of God do what they are anointed to do, preach, teach, and SING then the HG is always moving.

Truly, I would like to know where the Bible teaches us that, just because we "do what we are anointed to do", the Holy Ghost is moving (like Jesus is some heavenly bellhop, on call at our every whim because we are 'anointed'.)

You remind me of the story of the children of Israel when SAmuel was a young man and Eli was still high priest. Eli's two sons, Hophni and Phineas, were anointed and served as priests in Shiloh. But they also sinned greatly and took advantage of their position. When the children of Israel found themselves being whupped up on by the Philistines, they sent for the Ark of the Covenant to be brought out, so that "it may save us". So, here came Hophni and Phineas, doing the what they were anointed to do: bearing the symbol of the presence of God in the midst of His people. Sadly, Hophni and Phineas were killed, and the Ark was taken by the Philistines. I guess somebody forgot to tell Jehovah that He was supposed to be 'moving' because those folks who were doing what they were anointed to do were doin' their thing.

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

Did I say "vast majority." I've looked over my post a few times to find where you get that I said "vast majority," and it's not in there.

I said "The drugs weren't illegal; they're used by millions of people, including some apostolics I know"

How you got "vast majority" from "some," I'd like to know. Seriously though, do you do this often - take quotes that far off base? I'm laughing only because I can always point back to my post and to what I actually wrote. I doubt I'd be laughing, though, if I wasn't able to do that.

I think you'd be surprised with how many "Christians" are hooked on mood-altering drugs for depression, etc. Junk like Prozac and other drugs . . . not to mention pain-killers. I'm not condemning it, I'm just saying before you condemn and drag out M.E. for getting legal drugs by illegal means, you should understand that the drugs weren't illegal for one, and that there are millions of people who use those drugs, including some apostolics. In fact, saying that "some" apostolics use them is probably a drastic understatement.


"This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope. It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness."

It's not that I pass off sin as being okay. However, this is his past CC1, and no matter how many times he fell (in his past), or how he fell, he's able to receive the grace and mercy of God.

I don't understand why Christians are so quick to kill their wounded. Why they beat to death their own afflicted. Why is it that some Christians are quicker to side with the devil and remind people of their past; dredge up the blood-washed (by Christ) past, use it to condemn and accuse that person.

I don't aim this personally at you . . . it's for anyone and everyone who dares use a persons past against them, be careful when doing so . . . because persons who do so are fighting against God; literally punching God in the face, spitting at Him and saying that His grace, mercy, forgiveness and blood are not good enough to cover anothers sin.

Not only that, but those who do so align themselves with the devil, whom the Bible says is the accuser of the brethren.


Did I say, even once that you needed to support him by "watching him, listening to him, or buying his CD's, etc?"

Look at what I wrote, I did not. I wouldn't be so foolish as to demand such. I'd be to demand someone be a fan of anyone.

Again, it doesn't matter how many times he's repented. Where in the Bible is there a limit on how much grace and mercy God gives? Show me one place in the Bible where God tossed a person out with the trash because of their multiple failures and I'll show you thousands, even hundreds of thousands of "Christians" who are lost and destined for hell, if there truly is a limit to the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ.

Read that scripture in Lamentations again . . . each and every morning, God's mercy and compassion start all over again. No matter how much a person goes through the mercy and compassion of God, it's constantly being renewed every morning.

"For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease. Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground; Yet through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant."

What an incredible promise. Look at the words here . . . it's cut down, the root - waxing old and dead in the ground. Yet even then, after all that death . . . if that tree can get some water, it can live again.

"A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench:"

This is one of my favorite scriptures. I love the visualization in these words . . . Bruised reed, bent and hanging down. Regarded as useless and thrown away by most, yet God won't break it. Smoking flax (wick). The flame is gone. Warmth is leaving. Yet if someone could gently breathe on it, it could re-ignite a flame.

These scriptures show God's unending love for M.E., and anyone else who is bruised - even dead. If they can pick themself back up and get back to the open arms of Jesus Christ, where there is life . . . they can live again.

And, as would be written in the Bible, woe be unto anyone who would dare throw the blood-washed past back in their face. Only the devil, or those with him, does that.


Since when did sin have degrees? We've all sinned. You think his adultery is worse than a lie? Worse than rebellion? Lust? Envy? Pride or arrogance? I won't even mention the drug use since they're not illegal drugs, but rather drugs that some here on this board may have even used.


You can have your little conditions for being a fan . . . but I hope you don't place these same conditions on him in his walk with God.

You have every right to not be a fan and all...that's fine. Just leave the past where's it at . . . in the past. God will judge M.E., as He will all of us.

Prayer, not condemnation or accusations, is what M.E. needs.

Well, dude, I certainly hope you are the very first one to make this same exact post if the news ever comes out about a big name UPC preacher messing up somehow.