Firearms Refresher Course

If everyone thought like the pacifists, our country would not even exist.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Sheltiedad

If everyone thought like the pacifists, our country would not even exist.

And all the atheists shouted, "AMEN!"

Where is God found in your statement? Without a Christian's gun God could not take care of a country? God needs a Christian's gun for that? I just thought you might want to reconsider what you are saying.

Pacifism is not synonymous with non-intervention. You can involve yourself and make a difference without needing to carry a weapon or to shoot someone and end their life. The apostles and the early church never shot or killed anyone while establishing God’s kingdom on earth. They trusted God would do as He promised: “Vengeance is MINE. I WILL repay” (Romans 12:19). These saints instead willingly gave their life for their enemies. Anything less would have been seen as an assault against the message of Jesus’ gospel.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Lost and Found

And all the atheists shouted, "AMEN!"

Where is God found in your statement? Without a Christian's gun God could not take care of a country? God needs a Christian's gun for that? I just thought you might want to reconsider what you are saying.

Pacifism is not synonymous with non-intervention. You can involve yourself and make a difference without needing to carry a weapon or to shoot someone and end their life. The apostles and the early church never shot or killed anyone while establishing God’s kingdom on earth. They trusted God would do as He promised: “Vengeance is MINE. I WILL repay” (Romans 12:19). These saints instead willingly gave their life for their enemies. Anything less would have been seen as an assault against the message of Jesus’ gospel.

Awesome post! Hey and you did that without the use of an avatar of sickly pale two strips of tender loin looking legs.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Lost and Found

Pacifism is not synonymous with non-intervention. You can involve yourself and make a difference without needing to carry a weapon or to shoot someone and end their life. The apostles and the early church never shot or killed anyone while establishing God’s kingdom on earth. They trusted God would do as He promised: “Vengeance is MINE. I WILL repay” (Romans 12:19). These saints instead willingly gave their life for their enemies. Anything less would have been seen as an assault against the message of Jesus’ gospel.

[TK Burk]

STMATTHEW, bless you my brother!

I want to ask all you pacificst who would not protect by whatever means possible including the use of a firearm to protect

1. Your wife, the love of your life

2. Your daughter so tender and mild

3. Your beloved son that carries your own name to the next generation

4. Your nation that has afforded you the freedom to worship God

Being the pacificist that you are, you would rather chose to do nothing while this evil character

1. Rapes your wife as you watch him while you pray for him.

2. Ravages your daughter and you chosing not to "render evil for evil."

3. Abuses your son in a horrible manner as he cries out to you begging his daddy for help while daddy does nothing remembering that "veangence is mine, saith the Lord."

4. Allow your nation that has afforded all of the great freedoms to worship God as many times as you choose too, to fall to the powers of a evil tyrant when you have the power to preserve that feedom for yourself and others, choosing rather to "to pray for your enemies."

Are these the choices that you will make when faced with such evil. If so, I can plainly tell you that you do not

1. Deserve the wife that you have.

2. Deserve the beautiful little inoncent daughter that calls you daddy.

3. Deserve a son that will carry on your name to generations to come

4. A nation that has chosen to provide for you all the things that you enjoy so freely given to you by the blood of others, not willing to make the same sacrifice for another generation.

I would recommend that...

1. You tell your wife that if she is raped that you will "pray for her enemy." You should do this in all fairness so that she will know not to depend on you for protection. She may need to decide for herself what to do for protection if that awful day should ever arrive.

2. Give your daughter up for adoption to someone else who would be willing to protect that precious darling.

3. Give your beloved son up for adoption to someone who will teach him that when he becomes a man, it will become his God given duty to provide for and protect his own family. That he must do it as an act of love and devotion as a godly man filled with courage and a conviction of what is right and wrong.

4. Go live in another nation who think the same way that you think and will not fight to preserve what freedoms that they do have. Unfortunately, there is no such nation. They have long ago been swallowed up by an evil nation.

When love does not complel to protect family and nation by whatever means possible, love has fallen short of what God would have it to be. When love is faulty, courage is absent, conviction of what is right has flown away and the person is vulnerable to an evil attack when it will be shown that he never really believed his pacificist doctrine in the first place.

When scriptures are not understood that speak of not taking veangence, loving your enemies, etc., etc., it is very clear that they do not know the mind and attitude of God which has not changed since days of antiquity.

When you wife and daughter is abused and raped in front of your eyes when you have a means to stop it, you cannot even call the police...you will be too busy praying for them. Besides, even if you called the police, you would then be complicit in "rendering evil for evil," because the policeman will definitely STOP the evil man by whatever means possible, including he 9mm glock on his side...doing a job that you should have been doing. After all, the way that you all twist these scriptures that you present in your pacificist ideals, the police render evil for evil every day. So, if you are true to your convictions, you cannot involve the police to render evil for evil.

God has not changed, nor is he brain dead even if some people are.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

I want to ask all you pacificst who would not protect by whatever means possible including the use of a firearm to protect

1. Your wife, the love of your life

2. Your daughter so tender and mild

3. Your beloved son that carries your own name to the next generation

4. Your nation that has afforded you the freedom to worship God

Being the pacificist that you are, you would rather chose to do nothing while this evil character

1. Rapes your wife as you watch him while you pray for him.

2. Ravages your daughter and you chosing not to "render evil for evil."

3. Abuses your son in a horrible manner as he cries out to you begging his daddy for help while daddy does nothing remembering that "veangence is mine, saith the Lord."

4. Allow your nation that has afforded all of the great freedoms to worship God as many times as you choose too, to fall to the powers of a evil tyrant when you have the power to preserve that feedom for yourself and others, choosing rather to "to pray for your enemies."

Are these the choices that you will make when faced with such evil. If so, I can plainly tell you that you do not

1. Deserve the wife that you have.

2. Deserve the beautiful little inoncent daughter that calls you daddy.

3. Deserve a son that will carry on your name to generations to come

4. A nation that has chosen to provide for you all the things that you enjoy so freely given to you by the blood of others, not willing to make the same sacrifice for another generation.

I would recommend that...

1. You tell your wife that if she is raped that you will "pray for her enemy." You should do this in all fairness so that she will know not to depend on you for protection. She may need to decide for herself what to do for protection if that awful day should ever arrive.

2. Give your daughter up for adoption to someone else who would be willing to protect that precious darling.

3. Give your beloved son up for adoption to someone who will teach him that when he becomes a man, it will become his God given duty to provide for and protect his own family. That he must do it as an act of love and devotion as a godly man filled with courage and a conviction of what is right and wrong.

4. Go live in another nation who think the same way that you think and will not fight to preserve what freedoms that they do have. Unfortunately, there is no such nation. They have long ago been swallowed up by an evil nation.

When love does not complel to protect family and nation by whatever means possible, love has fallen short of what God would have it to be. When love is faulty, courage is absent, conviction of what is right has flown away and the person is vulnerable to an evil attack when it will be shown that he never really believed his pacificist doctrine in the first place.

When scriptures are not understood that speak of not taking veangence, loving your enemies, etc., etc., it is very clear that they do not know the mind and attitude of God which has not changed since days of antiquity.

When you wife and daughter is abused and raped in front of your eyes when you have a means to stop it, you cannot even call the police...you will be too busy praying for them. Besides, even if you called the police, you would then be complicit in "rendering evil for evil," because the policeman will definitely STOP the evil man by whatever means possible, including he 9mm glock on his side...doing a job that you should have been doing. After all, the way that you all twist these scriptures that you present in your pacificist ideals, the police render evil for evil every day. So, if you are true to your convictions, you cannot involve the police to render evil for evil.

God has not changed, nor is he brain dead even if some people are.

I honestly think that you are stepping beyond the realm of New Testament scripture with you above post. I guess Stephen was a fool, as he did not fight to save himself amidst the stones that were hitting him. He rather prayed that God would not lay this thing done to the attackers charge. I guess Paul was a fool to allow himself to be captured and taken to Rome in bonds after he was already showed that it would happen. He could have at least taken up sword and given a good fight. I guess when Saul/Paul was catching all those Christians out of hiding, men women, and children, and dragging them off to prison that they should have took up arms and instituted a revolt.

What about all those that died during the Inquisition, or those that have been tortured for Christ without ever "fighting back". Was Richard Wurmbrand wrong to pray for his torturers instead of plotting an riot to destroy them?

No my Brother, You cannot kill your enemies and love your neighbor as yourself at the same time. Vengeance, and justice for that matter, is not in our hands, but in Gods hands.

And by the way, no one here said we would not protect our loved ones. Not speaking for others, but what I have said is that to the taking of a life is not an option. I would give mine for the sake of my families if need be. But to use fatal force would be unbiblical to a New Testament Saint. God does NOT call the New Testament saint to "take up arms". This is an Old Testament shadow of a New Testament spiritual war. We wrestle NOT against flesh and blood.

[TK Burk]

Thanks STMATTHEW!

Great post!

They have yet to see that no one here is saying that God changed. He is THE ONE who is--and always has been--allowed to bring such vengeance. The issue is what does God want His children to do now that He has made the new creatures in Christ? THAT is the question!

Originally Posted by stmatthew

I honestly think that you are stepping beyond the realm of New Testament scripture with you above post. I guess Stephen was a fool, as he did not fight to save himself amidst the stones that were hitting him. He rather prayed that God would not lay this thing done to the attackers charge. I guess Paul was a fool to allow himself to be captured and taken to Rome in bonds after he was already showed that it would happen. He could have at least taken up sword and given a good fight. I guess when Saul/Paul was catching all those Christians out of hiding, men women, and children, and dragging them off to prison that they should have took up arms and instituted a revolt.

Matthew, I have not spoken of defending myself.

What about all those that died during the Inquisition, or those that have been tortured for Christ without ever "fighting back". Was Richard Wurmbrand wrong to pray for his torturers instead of plotting an riot to destroy them?

I have no problem with dying as a martyr or suffering any other violence for whatever cause, especially for the cause of Christ.

No my Brother, You cannot kill your enemies and love your neighbor as yourself at the same time. Vengeance, and justice for that matter, is not in our hands, but in Gods hands.

Yes you can. You defenitely can. No veagence is NOT our hands. That belongs to God alone. However justice and righteousness is in our hands. For instance, capital punishment for certain crimes is justice and it is godly. It is a demonstration of charity to society as a whole to carry out that execution. There are wars that you can engage in and love your neighbor as yourself at the same time. In times like that, you love your neighbor MORE than yourself especially when you are called upon to give YOUR OWN LIFE for the cause of the greater good...which is charity in its highest representation.

And by the way, no one here said we would not protect our loved ones.

Yes, Lost said that he would not. He said that he would only trust God and do nothing himself. I hope that he has told his wife not to depend on him to protect her from a rapist.

Not speaking for others, but what I have said is that to the taking of a life is not an option. I would give mine for the sake of my families if need be. But to use fatal force would be unbiblical to a New Testament Saint. God does NOT call the New Testament saint to "take up arms". This is an Old Testament shadow of a New Testament spiritual war. We wrestle NOT against flesh and blood.

It is not a shadow at all. Men have been in spiritual warfare since Adam. It was no shadow, it was very tangible and real. You are arguing a position from NO scripture in this regard.

But using your logic, we would not wrestle against flesh and blood even to protect our families, though you are now saying that you would...if that is your interpretation of wrestling. But that is not what that scripture is talking about.

So, would you wrestle to protect your family even since the scripture says NOT to wrestle?

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

Matthew, I have not spoken of defending myself. I have no problem with dying as a martyr or suffering any other violence for whatever cause, especially for the cause of Christ.

So you only espouse to defending others, and not yourself?

Yes you can. You defenitely can. No veagence is NOT our hands. That belongs to God alone. However justice and righteousness is in our hands. For instance, capital punishment for certain crimes is justice and it is godly. It is a demonstration of charity to society as a whole to carry out that execution. There are wars that you can engage in and love your neighbor as yourself at the same time. In times like that, you love your neighbor MORE than yourself especially when you are called upon to give YOUR OWN LIFE for the cause of the greater good...which is charity in its highest representation.

Bro, that is a big stretch. Please tell me how I can shoot down my enemy, and love him at the same time? That IS what we are commanded to do, isn't it? Love your enemies.

Yes, Lost said that he would not. He said that he would only trust God and do nothing himself. I hope that he has told his wife not to depend on him to protect her from a rapist.

I think this comment is quite underneath you. BUt none the less, I cannot speak for him, only to say that I did not see where he stated he would hold his wifes hand only while the rapist had his way with her.

It is not a shadow at all. Men have been in spiritual warfare since Adam. It was no shadow, it was very tangible and real. You are arguing a position from NO scripture in this regard.

The Old Testament call to "go in and conquer" was a shadow of the Spiritual war we now fight, otherwise Jesus would not have told Peter to put away his sword. The land we go in and possess is not this carnal land, but a spiritual land. Unless of coarse you believe in the "Dominion Now" false doctrine that is being espoused.

Bro, I am sorry, but there is not one place in the new testament that calls us to take up arms to defend ourselves or our families, but I have provided scripture that implies just the opposite. So the burden of proof is now on you.

But using your logic, we would not wrestle against flesh and blood even to protect our families, though you are now saying that you would...if that is your interpretation of wrestling. But that is not what that scripture is talking about.

So, would you wrestle to protect your family even since the scripture says NOT to wrestle?

I have been very plain to say I do not know what I would do in such a case, while showing what I believe scripture says. But my actions, or non-actions has no bearing on scripture. Thus far, all I have seen from the opposite side is supposition, and not sound doctrine. If I am wrong, I have no problem changing my view, as to me this is not a salvational type issue, but just a view. But until someone can present scriptural support when the New Testament gives quite a few verses like "Love you enemies", then I will continue believing what I believe, and hope I never have to be tested in this area.