Firearms Refresher Course - Page 9

Praxeas · #81 08-16-2007, 03:49 PM

BTW you don't have to use deadly force to protect your family or subdue an attacker

Praxeas · #82 08-16-2007, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

No just promoting an argument based on "SILENCE."

I haven't seen anyone make an argument based on silence, please point me to it

Evang.Benincasa · #83 08-16-2007, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

No, it means he was willing to die to SAVE OTHERS. The key here is saving others. I'd repeat my rhetorical question again but after doing it twice now it's clear you guys don't want to address it

So you would get yourself beaten and crucified?

Esther · #84 08-16-2007, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I haven't seen anyone make an argument based on silence, please point me to it

Thanks, I thought I must be missing something???

Evang.Benincasa · #85 08-16-2007, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I haven't seen anyone make an argument based on silence, please point me to it

Ok, where is the N.T. scripture for anyone to use deadly force.

Evang.Benincasa · #86 08-16-2007, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esther

Thanks, I thought I must be missing something???

Yes it's called scripture.

Praxeas · #87 08-16-2007, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

So you would get yourself beaten and crucified?

Would you? You still have not answered my question. What would you do just watch someone else, your wife and kids, be raped or killed by someone else because you can't find a bible verse that specifically says it's ok to use violence to protect family when it does talk about saving others?

TK Burk · #88 08-16-2007, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esther

I think some of you folks completely missed the concept of what Jesus was saying.

Turn the other cheek. About what. Things that offend you.

Now IF Jesus was against you protecting your family by force, then answer me why He is coming back with an army to defend His chosen people, by force? KILLING His peoples enemys. Why doesn't He just turn the other cheek?

Tell me why when David's family and his men were captured and he went after them why God gave him victory IF he was against him protecting his family by force. Killing his enemy.

You have got to learn to understand the Principal of what He is teaching us.

Hope this helps.

"Turn the other cheek...." Think about that....

Also, concerning David: I wrote this in another thread that talked on this subject. No one there would touch it. Let's see if anyone here cares to:

Quote:

The same people that were called to fight physical wars in the Old Testament were also called to do the following:

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: (19) Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; (20) And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. (21) And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Is this to still be enforced in the New Testament as well? If not, why is this any different than what you are saying? I am not asking because I need this answer; this question is for you….

Remember John and James’ request?

Luke 9:54-55 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elijah did? (55) But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

Why was such vengeance acceptable during Elijah’s time, but not during the New Testament? Why did Jesus say that Zebedee’s, “Sons of Thunder, were asking for something that was of a “different spirit” than Jesus’? Again, I am not asking for me….

God used to wink at a lot of things that the New Testament says He now calls all men to repent for. Jesus said Moses allowed divorce because of the hardness of their Old-Testament-hearts, but then He raised the standard for all men in the New Testament and showed that a new heart should bring a deeper commitment. Jesus had a woman caught in adultery cast before His feet to see if He would agree with stoning her as commanded through Moses. What did Jesus do? He showed that judgment was not the highest standard of His kingdom. Instead He showed mercy. Jesus’ kingdom is built on His blood, not on His enemy’s. Jesus’ kingdom is to be known for love and mercy, not for hate and judgment. How can we demonstrate these godly traits while fighting a war?

Jesus is not a weak god that cannot rule from his own throne. Do you truly believe that He needs His Church to execute justice for him? See that is where we differ. I cannot find any scripture that says Jesus uses His Church for these things. Paul said that He uses heathen leaders for that, but the Church is to stay focused on love (See Romans 13:1-10).

I have asked repeatedly where the Jesus and or His Apostles wrote favorably concerning the Church involving herself in war or in killing her enemies. The absence of these scriptures should be cause enough for any who favor this draft to stop and think about how they could be in favor for something unsupported—and even spoken against—in scripture. How can we trust Jesus for our healing, or for our sustenance, or for our salvation, but not for our safety? The early Church trusted Him in all these. That is why there is NO RECORD of the early Church ever taking up arms to defend themselves. This is one of the biggest reasons why Rome was so attracted to the Church. Though persecuted, they never fought back. The Romans saw this as a strength that exceeded mere human ability. This testimony substantiated the Jesus that the Church preached and died for! Because of this, why should we be any different? Did Jesus change, or did men?

I hope that this helps.

Praxeas · #89 08-16-2007, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Ok, where is the N.T. scripture for anyone to use deadly force.

I don't see any. Now, if you say that proves you should not use deadly force then YOU are making an argument from silence. BTW where in the NT is scripture for posting on the internet? Where in the NT is scripture for anyone to drive a car? Where in the NT is scripture for anyone to do half the stuff you and I might do.

Here is a question for you, though you never answered the others, but let's see what happens.

What is the difference in the OT between murder and killing when it's clear that some taking of life were justified but others were not. Is murder all forms of killing in the bible? Or are there times when taking a life is NOT considered murder?

Evang.Benincasa · #90 08-16-2007, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Would you? You still have not answered my question. What would you do just watch someone else, your wife and kids, be raped or killed by someone else because you can't find a bible verse that specifically says it's ok to use violence to protect family when it does talk about saving others?

My father was an atheist and has never had his six daughters and two sons attacked or raped. Brother, I live in a neighborhood which isn't the safest, so what do you suggest? Should I move? Should I watch my family and never leave the house? It's called prayer Brother and faith that the Lord will protect all that He has given me. No problems about crack heads breaking in and killing my family. If it did happen I would use the same power that I use to cast out demons and that is JESUS NAME. Try it sometime Pentecostal, maybe it will work for you.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com