Since the heart is only known by God, how can we be SURE?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Rico

Sister, I am having some trouble knowing exactly which parts you are responding to and what goes to what. Can you clarify a bit? You did a boo boo somewhere in your editing. Thanks.

I thought I did. LOL!

Let me look again.

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Bitterness always destroys. Just tonight someone was talking to me about a bitter person and how the person used to be so fun to be around but today there is just a relic of their old self...bitter, har0d, unforgiving, cold...is what you feel around them now.

So true.

The Greek word is "PIKRIA" (even sounds "bitter", doesn't it? Interesting too that this word is a "feminine" noun.

According to Strong's the definition of 'pikria' is:

1) bitter gall

a) extreme wickedness

b) a bitter root, and so producing a bitter fruit

c) metaph. bitterness, bitter hatred

The root of bitterness reaps a bitter harvest.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Rico,
I have to disagree. If you are laying your gift at the altar you are searching for reconciliation.

If you are working with someone to find reconciliation by going to them alone, the decent thing to do, and then bringing others for help, I feel you have already forgiven them or you wouldn't have gone the extra mile.

This passage speaks of "shall be in danger" if you do these things: be angry w/o cause, call your brother Raca or a fool. It is a deeper instruction for finding forgiveness. It bears out, in a deeper meaning, to find forgiveness whether someone wants to give it or not, IMO.

Ok. I think I get what you were trying to say. The reason I highlighted the "without cause" part was to show that God was differentiating between those who are angry without cause and those who are angry with cause. Those instructions, in that portion of scripture, are not for anyone who is angry with cause. The other instructions are for those who have a legitimate trespass against them.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I thought did. LOL!

Let me look again.

I think I got it figured out. LOL!

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Can you enlarge on this? I'd be interested to hear more.

Not really, because I'm just thinking outloud as the thread progresses, but I'll give it a shot.

Here's the scripture:

3 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. 4 Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. 5 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.[a] 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. 7 Therefore do not be partners with them.

Those are some common issues for non-Christians and Christians alike. In a perfect world a true Christian full of God's spirit wouldn't wrestle with any of the above, however - - it's not a perfect world. I know Christians that walk the walk and talk the talk, YET they are involved in one of those above - - - so, do we judge them and say, oh, man you talk foolish talk or you are greedy, so to enter the kingdom of heaven, I need to separate myself from you.

I think we all would like to think that people that deal with this are just non-Christians or unrepented people, but what saddens me is I'm afraid we sit in church with people dealing with this stuff every Sunday.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

I agree, but does unforgiveness always turn to bitterness?

I do not think so. Better put, I don't think it has to turn to bitterness.

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

This is more along the lines of what I'm thinking. Like Felicity has already mentioned - it's hard for me to not forgive someone - - as Thad always accused me -- I want everyone happy, so I cannot imagine not forgiving someone to the point of bitterness.

I have forgiven my former husband even though he's really never asked for it - - BUT, I will never trust him again. I have absolutely no bitterness at all - I'm actually happier in my life than I have been in over 25 years.

And, I'm still not sure I completely see that the things Jesus mentioned that we need to separate ourselves from are only actions of the unrepented.

Renda......

I can believe that you're not the kind of temperament or personality to be "bitter". I don't see that in you at all.

I've been harmed and hurt by people that I least expected it from. It grieves me to this day and still at times I break down when I think about some of the grievous things that happened and that happen to us all during a lifetime of events and experiences.

Yet, I would be willing to trust many of those people again. Foolish? Maybe. But I don't think so because at heart most of those people were good people.

I think you would be able to too if TRUE LOVE once again made itself evident and there are ways that that can happen.

Not saying it will or even needs to in regard to the situation you're speaking of but just that IF it happened, then trust could be reborn.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Barb

Renda, unforgiveness is a hanging on disease that grows into something very ugly...been there, girl...

If sincere forgiveness is not granted, in time, bitterness will overtake and choke the life out of a person's spirit.

Perhaps the question to ask is, why do we choose not to forgive?!

It's late and I have a big day ahead of me...

If one has a willingness in his heart to forgive then bitterness does not necessarily take over in all cases, regardless of whether we forgive or not before asked to.

[Pressing-On]

originally posted by Rico
I am posting some scripture here for you to consider:

Mt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.


Notice how God specified "without a cause".

I'm not sure what you are saying, but the scripture is instructing forgiveness by saying - "shall be in danger". It's a warning and shows the extent someone will go with unforgiveness in their heart. It doesn't mention forgiveness, but it stands to reason it is or needs to be present with that kind of attitude.

Mt 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

Mt 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.


Notice the instructions are to the offender not the offendee.

But by going to the "offendee" you are opening up the heart of the "offendee" to see a better way. It is a process of forgiveness. Some people must be taught by example. So, I believe the scripture is reaching for the "offendee", because he cannot help himself.

Mt 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

Mt 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Mt 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.

Here again, we are reaching for the "offendee" by going the extra mile to pull him out of his state of mind.

I don't believe any of the scripture you posted are overlooking the "offendee", but reaching for him.

In all these instructions there is not one mention of forgiving without being asked. Keep in mind that the question, as posed, was if we are required to forgive if someone doesn't ask. Also keep in mind that I believe it is better to forgive regardless of whether we are asked or not. In our humanity we are weak, and not forgiving someone could become a source of bitterness.

Again, I believe the instructions are clear - reach for the lost. Show them a more excellent way.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Felicity

Renda......

I can believe that you're not the kind of temperament or personality to be "bitter". I don't see that in you at all.

I've been harmed and hurt by people that I least expected it from. It grieves me to this day and still I break down when I think about some of the grievous things that happened and that happen to us during a lifetime of events and experiences.

Yet, I would be willing to trust many of those people again. Foolish? Maybe. But I don't think so because at heart most of those people were good people.

I think you would be able to too if , once again made itself evident and there are ways that that can happen.

Not saying it will or even needs to in regard to the situation you're speaking of but just that IF it happened, then trust could be reborn.

Oh, I agree - - time will tell and as we've said to trust again will require time and consistency to rebuild the trust. I'm not afraid to trust at all, but just wise enough to not blindly trust because I've forgiven.