Since the heart is only known by God, how can we be SURE?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Rico

True, but our relationship with our Earthly father has more potential to affect our relationship with our Heavenly Father than other relationships would.

From my point of view as a woman, I think any bad human example is going to skew my view of God. It doesn't have to be a male.

As Christians we love and forgive. If I am not that kind of Christian woman my kids or anyone associated with my witness is going to have a skewed image of God because I taught them forgiveness and love and didn't exemplify it, as way of example.

My kids know that I love them to death!

[Rico]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

There's a lot of different paths we're taking in this thread, but it's really been enjoyable to me.

I see it as two side of the same coin.

[Felicity]

God forgives us as His children and His friends over and over and over again when we sin, fail and otherwise transgress His law and His will.

Still, He never ever removes His trust. If He did He'd never move on or in us and never entrust us with the spiritual gifts He's given to us ...... or to use those in working for Him and for the Kingdom of God.

'Well, we aren't God" - people say - "and so therefore we can't be expected to act like Him or have the ability to extend grace, mercy, compassion or TRUST like He does."

Yet...........we have GOD in us and all that He is IN us and therefore we have the capacity to forgive and love and trust as He does, if we CHOOSE to.

And then we're back to bitterness again. Bitterness can be the reason some people will NOT and steel themselves against trusting once again.

Lots of justifications can be made for lots of things, but in the end it's really all about choice. And wisdom must be a factor too as Renda has mentioned several times.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Rico

I understand where you are coming from and can see the principles you are gleaning from the text. I, on the other hand, am, for the purpose of deciding if we are required to forgive before asked, seeing the text from an instructional standpoint and do not see where we are being instructed to forgive before being asked to by the offender.

I believe that most everything written is in the way of principle.

I thank you for those passages! I never saw it so clearly as I did today.

So many times I've wanted to leave this Forum for so many reasons, but the studies like this keep me coming back!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

Yes, just like HO explained about her father. His words are empty to her and there's no trust, so to every find any forgiveness or trust with him he will have to keep his word a few times to get her attention.

There's a lot of different paths we're taking in this thread, but it's really been enjoyable to me.

Right, but I think she is weighing more on the "trust" than the "unforgiveness".

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Felicity

God forgives us as His children and His friends over and over and over again when we sin, fail and otherwise transgress His law and His will.

Still, He never ever removes His trust. If He did He'd never move on or in us and never entrust us with the spiritual gifts He's given to us ...... or to use those in working for Him and for the Kingdom of God.

'Well, we aren't God" - people say - "and so therefore we can't be expected to act like Him or have the ability to extend grace, mercy, compassion or TRUST like He does."

Yet...........we have GOD in us and all that He is IN us and therefore we have the capacity to forgive and love and trust as He does, if we CHOOSE to.

And then we're back to bitterness again. Bitterness can be the reason some people will NOT and steel themselves against trusting once again.

Lots of justifications can be made for lots of things, but in the end it's really all about choice. And wisdom must be a factor too as Renda has mentioned several times.

I don't totally agree with you. I don't think that not trusting someone goes back to bitterness on every account.

The Bible says to be "wise as serpents and gentle as doves." He is wanting us to watch as he instructed in the passage that Renda put out - "Let no one deceive you with empty words." He is instructing us not to trust everyone/everything. To be wise, be careful.

[Felicity]

I really haven't seen a lot of "study" here and haven't read the whole thread but the discussion has been interesting.

I feel so much for people like HO and others who have had such bad experiences in regard to absence of dads and a dad's love. That can't help but affect a person's perception of God and relationship with men in general.

Perhaps one of the reasons I've never lived my life in "fear" of God (the negative kind of fear I'm talking about - not the healthy kind of respect and awe and holy "fear" that we're instructed to have) is because I had a father who was such a wonderful male role model. I never had to worry about not being able to trust him. He was always there and I admired and respected him so much.

It must leave a huge hole in a person's life to have missed that.

[Rico]

I have an experience I would like to share with you:


Several years ago there was a man in our church. I will call him Brother X. Brother X was very prejudiced against black folks. Well, you all know my wife is half black and us Puerto Ricans have black roots too.

Anyway, Brother X and I started working together and things were not going well. We had some issues getting along and our personalities just seemed to clash. After some counseling from my pastor, I decided not to work for this man any more. I followed the instructions my pastor gave me, and when Bro. X found out I had quit him in the middle of a job, he came to my house and cussed out my wife and me, calling me the N word and anything else he could think. I was not there and my poor wife had to endure this scene by herself.

When I found out about it I was livid. All I knew to do was to look for direction from the Bible. I found the scriptures in Matt 18 and started following what they said to do. Afterall, we are supposed to be apostolic and do what the Bible says to do.

I went to Bro. X privately to ask him about what had happened when he came to my house. We were in the church parking lot at the time, and he started cussing me out and called me the N word to my face. In fact, we almost got into a fight because I was going to knock him on his backside when he said that to me. I didn't, partly because an elder from the church had witnessed what had happened and intervened.

I decided I would go the pastor and let him know what had happened. I had my scriptures and everything. The pastor told me that, yes, according to the Bible I had a case for bringing this man before the entire church over what he had done and his refusal to apologize.

However, I also had another option, and this is the one I chose. The pastor explained to me that he knew this man's tempermant and knew he would end up leaving the church if I brought what had happened before them, for them to decide. I also had the option of simply forgiving Bro. X. I chose this option, for the sake of church peace and for the sake of Bro. X. I did not want to let something like the ignorance that had been put into him by his father be the reason for him leaving the Church. To this day Bro X and I have not spoken to each other, I am not angry with him, and am not bitter over what happened.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

My kids know that I love them to death!

Is this code for "I smother them entirely too much"? LOL

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I don't totally agree with you. I don't think that not trusting someone goes back to bitterness on every account.

The Bible says to be "wise as serpents and gentle as doves." He is wanting us to watch as he instructed in the passage that Renda put out - "Let no one deceive you with empty words." He is instructing us not to trust everyone/everything. To be wise, be careful.

Whoa there Nellie. Wait up!

I said "can" not that it always is. CAN be, could be, might could possibly perhaps maybe be ...... and often is.