Firearms Refresher Course

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Lost and Found

Lots of "I" here. I thought we were to die to our own will and live only to God?

Where did Jesus teach what YOU believe? Where did the Apostles teach what you YOU believe? Where is the history that says the early church taught what YOU believe? Still waiting on all this....

Funny....you use "I" in your posts too then you want to try to criticise me for saying "I"?!?!

What do I believe? What is it that you think I believe? See once again you are trying to shift the burden of proof. It's about what YOU believe and YOUR belief you are trying to impose on others here is that it's WRONG biblically for someone to use a gun to protect themselves or other innocent citizens and you have yet to provide bible for that.

You and EB both resort to an argument from Silence by suggesting that if the bible does not specifically say you CAN do something then you can't do it, but then that would mean you guys are in error even being here on the internet, or driving cars..we can go down a long long list of things the bible does not specifically OK.

On the other hand Bro Strange did make a good point about charity.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Funny....you use "I" in your posts too then you want to try to criticise me for saying "I"?!?!

What do I believe? What is it that you think I believe?

Philosophy, Humanism, don't have much use for Arabs, the use of air rifles for the use of "prevention" of attacks from radical Islam, Conservatives, Krispy Creme vendors, and Cereal Killers (watch out Cap'n Crunch!)

Originally Posted by Praxeas

See once again you are trying to shift the burden of proof.

Look L&F this is what's called "PROJECTION" this is where instead of having a discussion and getting to the issues, the one individual resorts in accusations towards the other person. These accusations are nothing more than the individuals own crimes that he hurls at the person he is having the argument with. Nothing ever is resolved, nothing is ever brought to the table as to bring the discussion any further. What you do find out is that you and he are wasting time.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

It's about what YOU believe and YOUR belief you are trying to impose on others here is that it's WRONG biblically for someone to use a GUN to protect themselves or other innocent citizens and you have yet to provide bible for that.

Oh the drama! Innocent huddled children and women about to be violated?
Can we get any more extreme? Is this how the argument is being strengthened? What YOU believe? Imposing YOUR belief on others? Oh for shame on you L&F we have hit and all time low! Telling people to turn the other cheek, instead of killing someone with deadly force? What is Christianity coming to? It's the Bible Praxeas; you would be better off debating a Mormon on the subject of Joseph Smith and the similarities of Islam with the LDS church. This debate you're not winning.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

You and EB both resort to an argument from Silence by suggesting that if the bible does not specifically say you CAN do something then you can't do it, but then that would mean you guys are in error even being here on the internet, or driving cars..we can go down a long long list of things the bible does not specifically OK.

Praxeas your constant parroting is not helping you sir. Try to strengthen your argument with scripture. You have the entire Bible at your disposal. Enough with your philosophical mindset and rabbinical argument structure.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

On the other hand Bro Strange did make a good point about charity.

Explain "charity" to us Praxeas. I would be interested to see your thoughts on the "charity" of giving someone a gaping wound.

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by RevDWW

Thank you brother. And you have a lovely family as well!!!

Thank you I wish more Brothers and Sisters would use pictures of themselves and their families in their avatars. Lord bless yours.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[stmatthew]

Again, while I cannot say I could live up to it without the help of the Lord, I cannot see scripturally taking up arms to defend yourself, your family, or your country. I see just the opposite, in fact. How do you that believe that way fit these verses into the equation:

Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


Th 5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all [men].
1Th 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any [man]; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all [men].
1Th 5:16 Rejoice evermore.
1Th 5:17 Pray without ceasing.
1Th 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.
1Th 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Again, while I cannot say I could live up to it without the help of the Lord, I cannot see scripturally taking up arms to defend yourself, your family, or your country. I see just the opposite, in fact. How do you that believe that way fit these verses into the equation:

Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


Th 5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all [men].
1Th 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any [man]; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all [men].
1Th 5:16 Rejoice evermore.
1Th 5:17 Pray without ceasing.
1Th 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.
1Th 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Again, if we were talking about vengeance....rending evil for evil, then this verse applies. But this verse has nothing to do with protecting innocent lives. Is it a good thing to protect the innocent? Or is it an evil thing? Is it an evil thing to stop a man with a gun from killing others indiescrimatly, those that are unarmed and have done nothing to warrant such killing? Is that evil or good?

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Funny....you use "I" in your posts too then you want to try to criticise me for saying "I"?!?!

Prax,

First, you are posting so angrily that now you are taking credit for posts you did not even make. I was answering Brother Strange, not you. Are you sure you’re following the posts? oloroid

Originally Posted by Praxeas

What do I believe? What is it that you think I believe? See once again you are trying to shift the burden of proof. It's about what YOU believe and YOUR belief you are trying to impose on others here is that it's WRONG biblically for someone to use a gun to protect themselves or other innocent citizens and you have yet to provide bible for that.

Prax, I did not start this thread. It was started by another who listed quotes supporting the right for a Christian to use a gun against another human being. Again, are you sure you’re staying up with the posts?

Originally Posted by Praxeas

You and EB both resort to an argument from Silence by suggesting that if the bible does not specifically say you CAN do something then you can't do it, but then that would mean you guys are in error even being here on the internet, or driving cars..we can go down a long long list of things the bible does not specifically OK.

Prax, we do not have an argument of silence. The Bible specifically says that we should not return evil for evil, but instead good for evil.

The early Church was pacifist until the reign of Constantine. Constantine not only changed their carrying a physical sword, he also changed the spiritual sword he wanted the Church to obey. See Ephesians 6:17 and Hebrews 4:12 if you do not know what sword that is. Oh yes, by the way, THAT sword is the ONLY sword the Church was ever to carry.

The Essenes lived at Qumran. They not only wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls, reportedly they also—like Jesus—taught and lived by the law of nonviolence. Prax, these men were very pious Jews. They followed the strict letter of the Law. And because so, they saw that the Law taught non-violence. This is what Jesus saw too. Remember, He said, “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF. ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS” (Matthew 22:37-40). Jesus died while refusing to overcome violence by violence. Two wrongs never make a right. How can violence be used to eradicate violence? Jesus died maintaining His adherence to treating His neighbor as He would want to be treated. This is why Jesus taught the greatest love is for a man to give THEIR life FOR ANOTHER (see John 15:13). Remember Prax, Jesus died for us while we were undeserving SINNERS (See Romans 5:8)!

As far as scriptures, Jesus and His apostles taught non-violence throughout the NT. The entire Bible is about what man can choose to do; but Jesus wanted man to mature past the letter and choose as He did. This is why I asked about Deuteronomy 21. No one opposed to what I wrote seemed to see that. But at no time do we have biblical record that any parent ever chose to have their rebellious child stoned. Instead what did these parents choose? They chose love.

Remember the woman caught in adultery (See John 8:3-11)? The Law said she was to be stoned. The men who accused her wanted to stone her. What did Jesus choose? He chose love. He said, “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her” (John 8:7). This is what the Law was to do. Show that we have nothing defendable. Because so, before sentencing another to die for THEIR SIN, we must consider what that means in relation to what God desires. This is why the Bible says the end of the commandment is LOVE (See Romans 13:8, 10; Galatians 5:14; James 2:8). This sentiment is also why Jesus commanded: “But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I WILL HAVE MERCY, AND NOT SACRIFICE: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance” (Matthew 9:13).

Prax, for you I will list some of these many scriptures that tell a Christian that they should be violent free:
• But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; (Matthew 5:44)
• But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, (Luke 6:27)
• But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. (Luke 6:35)
• But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Matthew 5:39)
• But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. (1 Timothy 6:11)
• Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: (Hebrews 12:14)
• Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it. For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil. And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; (1 Peter 3:11-14)
• Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Galatians 5:19-24)
• Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. (Romans 12:19-21)
• Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamor, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. (Ephesians 4:31-32)
• Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: (Luke 6:37)
• And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on. (Luke 12:22)
• Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. (Matthew 26:52)
• Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. (Matthew 7:12)
• Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing. (1 Peter 3:9)
• Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. (Romans 12:17)
• See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men. (1 Thessalonians 5:15)

Okay Prax, I have shown here, just like I have before, what the Bible says about this. I have nothing to hide. Here is my NT list. Now, where is yours?

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Again, while I cannot say I could live up to it without the help of the Lord, I cannot see scripturally taking up arms to defend yourself, your family, or your country. I see just the opposite, in fact. How do you that believe that way fit these verses into the equation:

STMATTHEW, great point! I am sorry that others cannot follow you there! :sshhh

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Lost and Found

Prax,

First, you are posting so angrily that now you are taking credit for posts you did not even make. I was answering Brother Strange, not you. Are you sure you’re following the posts? oloroid

First of all, you are correct. You were responding to Bro Strange, but you still use "I" regardless.

Second of all, I find it humorous that you would charge me with being angry for someone whose obvious over use of smilies is trying to hide his own anger. Trust me, you've yet to see or rather 'read' me angry.

Prax, I did not start this thread. It was started by another who listed quotes supporting the right for a Christian to use a gun against another human being. Again, are you sure you’re staying up with the posts?

I never said you started the thread. I don't know that the other person claims these were reasons why a Christian SHOULD own a firearm. However I keep reading you making biblical arguments and on numerous occasions you have demanded scripture to support using a firearm to protect an innocent life....Im asking you to provide scriptures that proves you can't. To insist doing something must be in the bible or it's not ok is an argument from silence. I repeat, there are MANY MANY things we all do that is NOT in the bible specifically, but that has not prevented you or I from doing it.

Prax, we do not have an argument of silence. The Bible specifically says that we should not return evil for evil, but instead good for evil.

Again, we are NOT talking about rendering evil for evil, that's repayment. That's vengeance. We are talking about self defense and protecting lives. You are arguing something totally different from what the others here are. Yes we all agree the bible forbids vengeance and repayment of evil, but it does NOT prevent self defense, protecting people from harm nor does it prevent or forbid justice.

The early Church was pacifist until the reign of Constantine. Constantine not only changed their carrying a physical sword, he also changed the spiritual sword he wanted the Church to obey. See Ephesians 6:17 and Hebrews 4:12 if you do not know what sword that is. Oh yes, by the way, THAT sword is the ONLY sword the Church was ever to carry.

You have yet to prove that self defense or the defense of other innocents is forbidden.

The Essenes lived at Qumran. They not only wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls, reportedly they also—like Jesus—taught and lived by the law of nonviolence. Prax, these men were very pious Jews. They followed the strict letter of the Law. And because so, they saw that the Law taught non-violence.

They also believed THEY were the voice of one crying in the wilderness, but we see that title belonged to John. Just because THEY believed something does not make it the truth. They did not believe Jesus was the Messiah. They were Jews.
They were celebate.
They carried weapons as protection from robbers

According to Josephus, they had customs and observances such as collective ownership (War 2.122; Ant. 18.20), elected a leader to attend to the interests of them all whose orders they obeyed (War 2.123, 134), were forbidden from swearing oaths (War 2.135) and sacrificing animals (Philo, §75), controlled their temper and served as channels of peace (War 2.135), carried weapons only as protection against robbers (War 2.125), had no slaves but served each other (Ant. 18.21) and, as a result of communal ownership, did not engage in trading (War 2.127). Both Josephus and Philo have lengthy accounts of their communal meetings, meals and religious celebrations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes

This is what Jesus saw too. Remember, He said, “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF. ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS” (Matthew 22:37-40). Jesus died while refusing to overcome violence by violence. Two wrongs never make a right. How can violence be used to eradicate violence? Jesus died maintaining His adherence to treating His neighbor as He would want to be treated. This is why Jesus taught the greatest love is for a man to give THEIR life FOR ANOTHER (see John 15:13). Remember Prax, Jesus died for us while we were undeserving SINNERS (See Romans 5:8)!

If your neighbor is being brutally attacked, and you had the ability to stop it by resorting to violence like hitting the guy with a shovel, would you just sit there and wait? Would you call the police who might also use violence? Who, by the time they get there, might be to late to save you neighbors life???

As far as scriptures, Jesus and His apostles taught non-violence throughout the NT. The entire Bible is about what man can choose to do; but Jesus wanted man to mature past the letter and choose as He did. This is why I asked about Deuteronomy 21. No one opposed to what I wrote seemed to see that. But at no time do we have biblical record that any parent ever chose to have their rebellious child stoned. Instead what did these parents choose? They chose love.

Was Jesus being non-violent when he made a whip and drove people out of the temple? Was Peter being non-violent when he cut off that guys ear? See, nobody here is advocating going out and blowing people away and beating up people. They are not advocating mob violence, they are not advocating insurrection. They are not advocating revenge.

Prax, for you I will list some of these many scriptures that tell a Christian that they should be violent free:
• But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; (Matthew 5:44)
• But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, (Luke 6:27)
• But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. (Luke 6:35)
• But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Matthew 5:39)
• But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. (1 Timothy 6:11)
• Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: (Hebrews 12:14)
• Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it. For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil. And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; (1 Peter 3:11-14)
• Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Galatians 5:19-24)
• Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. (Romans 12:19-21)
• Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamor, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. (Ephesians 4:31-32)
• Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: (Luke 6:37)
• And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on. (Luke 12:22)
• Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. (Matthew 26:52)
• Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. (Matthew 7:12)
• Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing. (1 Peter 3:9)
• Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. (Romans 12:17)
• See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men. (1 Thessalonians 5:15)

Okay Prax, I have shown here, just like I have before, what the Bible says about this. I have nothing to hide. Here is my NT list. Now, where is yours?

You are just repeating scriptures that speak of vengeance or payback, not self defense or protecting others

[TK Burk]

Prax, where is your list??

[TK Burk]

Prax, no one takes Wikipedia as a serious source. How about the Britannica? Here is what they say:

For sometime before the Christian era, the Essenes, a Jewish sect in Palestine, preached nonviolence. The Roman Empire established a period of tranquillity known as the Pax Romana, but peace was kept by a military structure and applied only to the Roman world.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache...nk&cd=14&gl=us