Pastors move to withhold/lessen SFC offerings in protest of NAYC

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by pelathais

You are correct. Sadly for us, you are a little too correct.

We have to change. We have to become something else other than what we are now. And while the point here was about affecting others, look at how miserably we are affecting ourselves. I believe that we have something of genuine value to offer all of Christendom and Western Civilization- but we distrust Christendom and we "hate" Western Civilization. We have to become engaged in order to influence.

I am sorry that I am correct.

I wish there was proof that I was incorrect.

The current struggle is between two truly great titans of ideology.

1. Isolationism. There are ministers who desire nothing more than to see their own church flourish and/or maintained. They do not care to consider the idea that they could immediately impact the entire world with a minimal amount of resources used wisely. These men choose to support a minute system of foot soldiers that can never reach the unsaved masses on foreign soil with our current approach. They reject the notion of giving into something they cannot control. They are afraid that engagement would contaminate the church.

2. Engagement. These are the men who truly desire to take "the whole gospel to the whole world." They are visionary, risk-takers, motivators. They desire to apply New Testament principles to our twenty-first century culture. These men choose to eat with sinners, speak with an adulterous woman at a well, and trust those who may eventually sell them out.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by ChTatum

Whooooooooaaaaa, dude.
Are you saying nothing has changed since I went to UPC Youth Camp 30+ years ago???????

You mean other than the hem lines have gotten higher?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Felicity

Right! I think that there's a message here somewhere.

What came first, the chicken or the egg?
Or
Don't count your chickens before they hatch?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

This should be a thread of it's own.


The UPCI should rethink it's relationship with non OP Christians, both in offical statement and practice.

I don't think it requires an official statement...no non OP org has rethought it's relationship with us and issued an official statement that I know of...other than the AOG saying we are still heretics...

In practice....you can't legislate that kind of stuff. Some UPCers treat them one way and some another.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I admire your candor, even when you're "playing it safe."

And I also agree with Brother Hoover's statement above. We need to start looking at things from a bigger perspective. We are far too fearful and tend to pull our heads in like turtles whenever the vast scale of our mission looms over us. How about thinking along the lines of, "What would it take to see an entire denomination begin baptizing in Jesus name?" And then acting toward that goal.

Of course to change them so dramatically would require that we make some important changes as well.

Personally I think we are already too focused on trying to convert other Christians to our way of thinking when there are millions of unchurched people out there

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by Felicity

Where are you getting your information Bob D? If that was the case I don't see how a missionary would even be able to stay a whole term in their field of labour - particularly in some places.

Unless things have changed a whole lot then your 1/3 figure seems "off". How did you arrive at that anyhow?

They stay their whole term because they raise three times what they need. They get 1/3 of what they raise, Hazlewood gets the other two thirds. The missionary gets what they need, but Hazlewood gets twice as much as the missionary gets. This is from the mouth of a veteran UPCI missionary.

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by ChTatum

I have looked up "Hazlewood" and don't seem able to find it on mapquest.

Does mis-spelling indicate a lack of intelligence?

Or just ignorance and apathy?

Not ignorance, not lack of intelligence, just apathy toward HazELwood...

If that's the best you can do, simply nitpic spelling... HEY, I thought were friends... remember the coffee? Man, how easily we forget!

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by BobDylan

They stay their whole term because they raise three times what they need. They get 1/3 of what they raise, Hazlewood gets the other two thirds. The missionary gets what they need, but Hazlewood gets twice as much as the missionary gets. This is from the mouth of a veteran UPCI missionary.

No, they don't raise 3 times what they need. They raise 2x what they need.

I'm checking your figures out here when I get to talk to missionary friends and FMD personnel while at GC. I really think your numbers are inaccurate.

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by pelathais

BD - Can you name "some business administrator in Hazlewood?" Can you identify anyone on the staff there that fits this description? I know that there are a few accounting positions - but they are NOT tasked with tracking you down and taking your missions pledge to use for their private yacht. I remember one bean counter - who's still there today, and he prided himself and the WEC on its efficiency. The numbers and budget figures are published every year at General Conference. Can you imagine the uproar if anything even approaching what you alleged would take place?

When I worked there I knew just about everbody in the place, from the guy who cleaned the bathrooms to the GS. Nobody from that time fit your description, and I doubt things have changed that much since.

May I request someone to show me how anyone in Hazelwood, has biblical spiritual authority over another preacher, unless it's their own pastor who is in HQ? Organizational heirarchy does not equate to spiritual authority. Many of the people who get promoted to district and national offices, are not there because of their anointing, or their success in real God called ministry, but because of their administration and organizational abilities. I would even dare say that some of the people who are appointed and voted into district and national offices are done so simply because of who they are, who they know, or their political saavy. Either way, my assertion still stands: "business administrators in Hazelwood" have no real biblical or spiritual authority over another God-called preacher who is doing the will and work of God.

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by Felicity

No, they don't raise 3 times what they need. They raise 2x what they need.

I'm checking your figures out here when I get to talk to missionary friends and FMD personnel while at GC. I really think your numbers are inaccurate.

That would be fine, and if I am incorrect then I will retract my assertion there. However I can say that I obtained this information from a missionary who has been on the field for nearly 3 decades and was recently on deputation (sp?).