Pastors move to withhold/lessen SFC offerings in protest of NAYC

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by BoredOutOfMyMind

Matt is NOT UPC!

LOL! I know!

I was just making a general point thinking of a statement he made a couple days ago that seems to be in contradiction with what he wrote above.

That's all.

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I agree with both of you on this, technically. However my "argument" is that "Hazelwood" and the WEC don't really even try to exercise this type of authority; at least not from my experience.

The thing you describe with apparent dread really exists closer to home- at the district level.

I know many man who have experienced first hand this type of authoritative manipulation at the district level. I also know of some foreign missionaries that said (unbiblical) authority has been excercised.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Felicity

LOL! I know!

I was just making a general point thinking of a statement he made a couple days ago that seems to be in contradiction with what he wrote above.

That's all.

Well, a man has to contradict himself here and there doesn't he??


I do believe that a person that has submitted themselves to someone should be in submission to them.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Felicity

And in this way Matt, you are in submission to those who are in leadership over you. Don't you think?

But submission and covering is 2 different things, IMHO.

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by pelathais

The struggle that you run into a lot of times, is how to implement the NT into the 21 century society. Obviously in North America, any preacher is pretty much free to choose who, what or if he/she is to have any "rule" over them. As StMatt pointed out, in the case of the UPC, a particular preacher is free to sign on or bail out at any point in their ministry. If you sign on then you are making the choice to participate under the governance of the UPC. If that gets old, bail out.

Where I personally have had problems with the UPC's approach to things, is when the agreement is changed (as with the AS) without an open and free flow of information. Another point is when local districts or even local presbyters are not in line with the national governance.

Given those two concerns, I would have to say that, the burden and yoke of the UPC is otherwise "easy" and "light" in most places. The point being, that if any one has a problem with the UPC (or any other org for that matter) try and work things out- if you don't get anywhere then bail out. This is not Sadaam's Iraq that we're dealing with here.

Good post. And I agree... my initial response is to the outrage that some have expressed with regards to pastors holding funds from the WEC out of protest for "goings-on" at the national level. It seems the protest of the pastorates has far exceeded any level experienced heretofor. Someone suggested that WEC had authority over pastors, and that the pastors are "wrong" for objecting to national level decisions. I wholeheartedly disagreed. I suggest that it is not the local pastors who disagree with the decisions of national leadership who we should implicate in their protest, it is the national leaders who have made decisions and set a course for the organization that is not sympathetic to the concerns of the pastoral constituency of the organization who should be implicated.

what was sinful about NAYC '07???

n/m I found it...

and that is the kind of nonsense that prompted me to leave the UPC church I was going to...

OH NO!! DORA THE EXPLORER'S VOICE ACTOR!! (and she's apostolic which makes it even sadder that people were up in arms over it)

OH NO!! THEY STEP DANCED!! (note: the biggest issue with this is the the people complaining are old and white and the people doing the stepping were probably either young and black or in a predominantly black church or are fans of hip-hop styled music and "black culture" (the good parts, not the lame gangster rap bad parts))

its a joke...

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by redeemedcynic84

what was sinful about NAYC '07???

n/m I found it...

and that is the kind of nonsense that prompted me to leave the UPC church I was going to...

OH NO!! DORA THE EXPLORER'S VOICE ACTOR!! (and she's apostolic which makes it even sadder that people were up in arms over it)

OH NO!! THEY STEP DANCED!! (note: the biggest issue with this is the the people complaining are old and white and the people doing the stepping were probably either young and black or in a predominantly black church or are fans of hip-hop styled music and "black culture" (the good parts, not the lame gangster rap bad parts))

its a joke...

Race doesn't have anything to do with it Redeemedcynic. You ought to be ashamed of yourself for even suggesting it. I think the problem most people have is the choreographed dance moves, and the tribal pagan origin of the particular dance called "stepping".

[pelathais]

Others have pretty much beat this to death perhaps, but is choreography always wrong? Not just "steppin'" - but in general? In the Temple worship in Jerusalem they used what we might call choreography - even to to the point of having some participants' places carved in stone.

There was a procession and a "performance" that followed a set liturgy. CofC people would argue that the whole affair was "under the law" and that my attempt to appeal to the Temple worship pattern is something that was done away with in the New Covenant. But then again, they also throw out the musical instruments as well.

Is choreography "bad" or just certain styles of dance? Obviously some "styles of dance" are bad... but you know what I mean? In Jerusalem they had huge processions with a different program for the diiferent feasts. David intiated this with his celebrated dance and praise. By Solomon's time the whole thing was an elaborate affair. Would we be wrong to do this?

Also, what about other Jewish dances? People with their arms over each other's shoulders; dancing in a circle. The "steps" of each participant are the same, but hardly very elaborate. Does this honor God?

Originally Posted by BobDylan

Race doesn't have anything to do with it Redeemedcynic. You ought to be ashamed of yourself for even suggesting it. I think the problem most people have is the choreographed dance moves, and the tribal pagan origin of the particular dance called "stepping".

its under the surface, but it is absolutely a race thing...

See, "stepping" is a part of black culture... and old white people don't get it, and since they don't get it they don't like it...

Is it overt purposeful racism? Absolutely not. But to act like race doesn't have a part in it is to ignore the obvious...

I'm not saying they are racist, don't take what I said that way... Simply that race has to do with it because it is outside of our culture to have stepping happen, whereas in black areas it is a normal thing...

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by redeemedcynic84

its under the surface, but it is absolutely a race thing...

See, "stepping" is a part of black culture... and old white people don't get it, and since they don't get it they don't like it...

Is it overt purposeful racism? Absolutely not. But to act like race doesn't have a part in it is to ignore the obvious...

I'm not saying they are racist, don't take what I said that way... Simply that race has to do with it because it is outside of our culture to have stepping happen, whereas in black areas it is a normal thing...

Stepping is part of pagan tribal culture. This has nothing to do with "black culture". Consider the "Sun dance". When native americans are CONVERTED to CHRISTIANITY, should we suggest and promote the native american Sun Dance around our altars? There are celtic dances and rituals, and other eurocentric rites that are prevailent among native european "white" culture. Should we endorse that kind of activity around our altars once these "celts" and "druids" are CONVERTED to CHRISTIANITY? This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE, COLOR, OR CREED. It has everything to do with what is appropriate around our CHRISTIAN altars! This has nothing to do with race, it has everything to do with being Christian!

2 Cor 5:17
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Phi 3:13-14
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.


2 Cor 6:14-18
for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.