Do you hafta go through the pastor?

[Felicity]

I agree with a lot of the points tbpew is making. And in fact have made some of them myself in the past in regard to this discussion.

I'd just like to read a concise wrap-up ..... perhaps in 10 point form or something like that.

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Felicity

I agree with a lot of the points tbpew is making. And in fact have made some of them myself in the past in regard to this discussion.

I'd just like to read a concise wrap-up ..... perhaps in 10 point form or something like that.

my schedule for the balance of the afternoon will not provide access online.

I am sorry, but concise statements just set me up for silly comments like "you don't believe pastors have any authority!?!".

sorry its not a simple, easily shared position.

When contrasting against the well-established, highly familiar, construct of the main delivery system used by apostolics, it just isn't a simple thing.

The engagement I have had so far from GL, CS, and Easty are evidence that the specificity I have tried to bring into the discussion is strictly met with..."what part of Heb 13:17 don't you understand?" If that is the primary basis of rebuttal from those who preceive they sit in Moses' seat, I would be introducing countless little side branches if I were to attempt, high level surmising. This, IMO, is the inherent 'death-song' on discussion boards. Such efforts more often spawn silly posting exchanges like ...."well not all pastors are like dictatorial rulers!". Great, now what did that view provide to support or deny the PRINCIPLE being discussed? Sorry, I would rather trust more words for those who care to read them then to make high level summaries that just open up a feeding frenzy for little foxes.

The readers who are hearing what I am saying from within their confidence that their RULERship is God-ordained, have little capacity to consider the cause/effect of such an assertion made within the body of Christ. To even insinuate that a discussion of authority can be conducted without a specific delineation of applicable boundaries and realms, is a position the is being purposely evasive.

How does one begin to establish any kind of beach-head for consideration when the words being presented are viewed as having their motivation in causing division between a ruler and his subjects? That is DOA proposition in the ears of the occupants of Moses' seat.

Sorry, Barb. That is the way things are from my view. I will respond to your question to me in your last post and then respectfully depart from my direct exchange with you to avoid any space where a unintended wound may be inflicted.

sincerely,
tbpew

[Barb]

Originally Posted by tbpew

my schedule for the balance of the afternoon will not provide access online.

I am sorry, but concise statements just set me up for silly comments like "you don't believe pastors have any authority!?!".

sorry its not a simple, easily shared position.

When contrasting against the well-established, highly familiar, construct of the main delivery system used by apostolics, it just isn't a simple thing.

The engagement I have had so far from GL, CS, and Easty are evidence that the specificity I have tried to bring into the discussion is strictly met with..."what part of Heb 13:17 don't you understand?" If that is the primary basis of rebuttal from those who preceive they sit in Moses' seat, I would be introducing countless little side branches if I were to attempt, high level surmising. This, IMO, is the inherent 'death-song' on discussion boards. Such efforts more often spawn silly posting exchanges like ...."well not all pastors are like dictatorial rulers!". Great, now what did that view provide to support or deny the PRINCIPLE being discussed? Sorry, I would rather trust more words for those who care to read them then to make high level summaries that just open up a feeding frenzy for little foxes.

The readers who are hearing what I am saying from within their confidence that their RULERship is God-ordained, have little capacity to consider the cause/effect of such an assertion made within the body of Christ. To even insinuate that a discussion of authority can be conducted without a specific delineation of applicable boundaries and realms, is a position the is being purposely evasive.

How does one begin to establish any kind of beach-head for consideration when the words being presented are viewed as having their motivation in causing division between a ruler and his subjects? That is DOA proposition in the ears of the occupants of Moses' seat.

Sorry, Barb. That is the way things are from my view. I will respond to your question to me in your last post and then respectfully depart from my direct exchange with you to avoid any space where a unintended wound may be inflicted.

sincerely,
tbpew

Bro. Pew, I am sorry if you feel in any way that my comments were silly, but in my uneducated understanding of what you have posted, what other opinion can one take?!

Your opinions HERE have not wounded me...please feel free to post away.

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by tbpew

my schedule for the balance of the afternoon will not provide access online.

I am sorry, but concise statements just set me up for silly comments like "you don't believe pastors have any authority!?!".

sorry its not a simple, easily shared position.

When contrasting against the well-established, highly familiar, construct of the main delivery system used by apostolics, it just isn't a simple thing.

The engagement I have had so far from GL, CS, and Easty are evidence that the specificity I have tried to bring into the discussion is strictly met with..."what part of Heb 13:17 don't you understand?" If that is the primary basis of rebuttal from those who preceive they sit in Moses' seat, I would be introducing countless little side branches if I were to attempt, high level surmising. This, IMO, is the inherent 'death-song' on discussion boards. Such efforts more often spawn silly posting exchanges like ...."well not all pastors are like dictatorial rulers!". Great, now what did that view provide to support or deny the PRINCIPLE being discussed? Sorry, I would rather trust more words for those who care to read them then to make high level summaries that just open up a feeding frenzy for little foxes.

The readers who are hearing what I am saying from within their confidence that their RULERship is God-ordained, have little capacity to consider the cause/effect of such an assertion made within the body of Christ. To even insinuate that a discussion of authority can be conducted without a specific delineation of applicable boundaries and realms, is a position the is being purposely evasive.

How does one begin to establish any kind of beach-head for consideration when the words being presented are viewed as having their motivation in causing division between a ruler and his subjects? That is DOA proposition in the ears of the occupants of Moses' seat.

Sorry, Barb. That is the way things are from my view. I will respond to your question to me in your last post and then respectfully depart from my direct exchange with you to avoid any space where a unintended wound may be inflicted.

sincerely,
tbpew

If you can give me an honest explanation of Heb 13:17 and why "pastors" are even mentioned in the bible I wouldn't keep prodding you for an explanation. In case you haven't noticed, since I've been on the AFF I have apologized to people for being a bit offensive. I am here to learn from everyone, if you can provide something useful to this discussion with simplicity, then I am willing to learn. I might be conservative, but I am fair with the information that I recieve. I am more objectionable than you are willing to give me credit for. I have read the entire thread, and somehow I am not understanding what you are trying to say. I was trying to be patient with what you were saying, but I was getting somewhat frustrated because of your scholarly exhortation and grammar. Could you simplify?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by tbpew

When contrasting against the well-established, highly familiar, construct of the main delivery system used by apostolics, it just isn't a simple thing.
...

Sorry to whittle down your fine discussion; but I think you hit on something important there. How would an analysis of "God's delivery system" through time appear?

Especially today we are consumers of media. But believers of all times have been dependant upon media or a "delivery system" for gaining access to those things that God is saying to them.

That "delivery system" at times may have just been a lone voice crying out against injustice (Jeremiah) or an elaborate state run Temple enterprise with processions and elaborate sacrifices and ritual (not forgetting that the OT sacrifices usually entailed a communal feast).

Today, how do we access this "delivery system?" More importantly - how can we more effectively use this system from both the transmission and the receiving sides?

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by tbpew

I am sorry, but concise statements just set me up for silly comments like "you don't believe pastors have any authority!?!".

sorry its not a simple, easily shared position.

Understood. I know it's not an easy position to articulate concisely because there are many things to consider.

I agree with many of the points you made and have made some of the some points myself in discussing this issue in the past.

I also agree with many of the points made by Coonskinner.

Thank you for the time and effort you've put into presenting your views. I still think it could be done in a 10 point bullet form but I understand the reluctance.

I don't think the question is: "are pastors Biblical?" Or: "do they have authority?"

But rather is the sola pastora system man's invention or God's. What authority do pastors have? What are the limits that are breached in this day and age? To what extent will there be an accounting if the authority is wielded amiss and the office out of bounds in structure and accountability?

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by Theophilus

I don't think the question is: "are pastors Biblical?" Or: "do they have authority?"

But rather is the sola pastora system man's invention or God's. What authority do pastors have? What are the limits that are breached in this day and age? To what extent will there be an accounting if the authority is wielded amiss and the office out of bounds in structure and accountability?

So, maybe you could shed a little more light on the subject? We know that pastors are biblical, but to what extenet?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Theophilus

I don't think the question is: "are pastors Biblical?" Or: "do they have authority?"

But rather is the sola pastora system man's invention or God's. What authority do pastors have? What are the limits that are breached in this day and age? To what extent will there be an accounting if the authority is wielded amiss and the office out of bounds in structure and accountability?

Originally Posted by BrotherEastman

So, maybe you could shed a little more light on the subject? We know that pastors are biblical, but to what extenet?

In the New Testament we find that the churches have "elders" (you could call them "pastors" as well). But the pattern appears to be that a group of leaders were at the helm of the local churches.

The "bishops" were literally "overseers." Their function would eventually morph into what we saw in the early Catholic Church with bishops and bishoprics. This of course led to secular authority being wielded by churchmen and the abuses that were so prominent later in medieval times; a case where one man simply had too much power.

Some would argue that similar abuses can be observed on the more local scale with the "one pastor" model of church government.

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by pelathais

In the New Testament we find that the churches have "elders" (you could call them "pastors" as well). But the pattern appears to be that a group of leaders were at the helm of the local churches.

The "bishops" were literally "overseers." Their function would eventually morph into what we saw in the early Catholic Church with bishops and bishoprics. This of course led to secular authority being wielded by churchmen and the abuses that were so prominent later in medieval times. A case where one man simply had too much power.

Some would argue that similar abuses can be observed on the more local scale with the "one pastor" model of church government.

I've heard of this teaching. There is a pastor in Pennsylvania (I believe) who wants to go to this system. At the risk of being wrong, I believe it was Rev David Huston.