What is your take on Paul's role to the churches in the NT, considering they also had pastors in each church?
A God-supplied gift.
A blessing to edify the Body in matters that are shared by all.
The common space, when we assembly together, must have a system of order. I am so thankful for the counsels concerning this that Paul witnessed from God and breathed-out or penned in a letter.
Did Paul have the ability to take away the liberty of an individual member of the Body of Christ? Could he put them in prison or bonds within the tabernacle of God? Of course not, because he had no authority over any Saint. No saint had to obey him or else suffer punitive actions given to him in his office, because he is not the authority over them in Christ. He was not their master or their RULER.
Hey, if you have two way traffic you needs lines and folks to enforce the lines and administer the punitive measures for non-compliance.
So now lets extend that to the church of the living God. For the shared experience to be conducted in an order fashion, there will always be overseers and servants, but what authority over the individual do they have that has been given to them by God?
If they have authority over the individual, what is their ability to put the rebelious in bonds?
If you mark those that cause division among you and instruct other people to not eat dinner with them, your authority is in some administration of a shared environment, a group thingy. But whether anyone receives your counsel has no impact in relation to any authority. It would just be an individual deciding against the path that a guide is instructing to be taken. So, I am agreeing that if some guy wants to set a time when an invitation to assemble is made available, great. Its a shared experience and needs a decision-maker within the mix to facilitate.
The same operation of authority of any person who establishes a meeting time has no proper extension in application concerning whether or not I attend or do not attend.
Authority has roles and realms in which in operates. When those roles and realms are exceeded, the game gets messed up, discord is sown and peace is forfeitted.
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Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath [James 1:19]
Rico, you can do what you want. There isn’t anyone out there to stop you.
Doing what you want however makes you one man alone doing what you think you should and there is danger in that.
The reason why pastors look for men who are willing to submit to some kind of leadership, is they know the danger that comes with being a maverick.
Men who are approved by the brethren, tend to be more clear on doctrine, more steady in their personal lives, more likely to minister without causing damage.
Pastors are jealous about what their people hear because pastors have to deal with the fall out when some other messenger comes to tell their flock.
With no one to vouch for you, a pastor isn’t going to risk letting you near his people.
The word you hear is “cover” a man who has mentors and friends in the ministry has “cover”. That cover is there it protect him from himself in most instances. It isn’t about some preacher getting to tell others what to do, it is about some preacher protecting himself from going off the deep end.
If you were to poll, 500 pastors regardless of denomination, I would guarantee, that 90% would tell you they have known at least 1 maverick preacher, and that guy went over the edge and is no longer serving God, or worse, has taken some group into apostasy.
Rico, like I said, you can do what you want. There isn’t anyone that can stop you from starting a prison ministry or even your own church if you like. The danger is, there isn’t anyone to stop you when you go off course. EVERYONE runs the risk of running off course at some point in their ministry….EVERYONE. All the good ones know this, and work to prevent it before it happens. (Cover)
The great “tell” of a preacher in my mind, is how teachable is he?
Brother, I am not called to preach to the Church, so getting approval from a pastor for me to preach to his flock isn't going to be an issue.
Also, this isn't about doing what I want. If I had my way someone else would be going through this.
Lastly, what makes you think I won't have someone I can call on for advice? Why do you think that because I am not interested in becoming a member of a church that that makes me a maverick, bound to fail? Your thinking has become institutionalized.
A God-supplied gift.
A blessing to edify the Body in matters that are shared by all.
The common space, when we assembly together, must have a system of order. I am so thankful for the counsels concerning this that Paul witnessed from God and breathed-out or penned in a letter.
Did Paul have the ability to take away the liberty of an individual member of the Body of Christ? Could he put them in prison or bonds within the tabernacle of God? Of course not, because he had no authority over any Saint. No saint had to obey him or else suffer punitive actions given to him in his office, because he is not the authority over them in Christ. He was not their master or their RULER.
Hey, if you have two way traffic you needs lines and folks to enforce the lines and administer the punitive measures for non-compliance.
So now lets extend that to the church of the living God. For the shared experience to be conducted in an order fashion, there will always be overseers and servants, but what authority over the individual do they have that has been given to them by God?
If they have authority over the individual, what is their ability to put the rebelious in bonds?
If you mark those that cause division among you and instruct other people to not eat dinner with them, your authority is in some administration of a shared environment, a group thingy. So, I am agreeing that if some guy wants to set a time when an invitation to assemble is made available, great. Its a shared experience and needs a decision-maker within the mix to facilitate.
The same operation of authority of any person who establishes a meeting time has no proper extension in application concerning whether or not I attend or do not attend.
Authority has roles and realms in which in operates. When those roles and realms are exceeded, the game gets messed up, discord is sown and peace is forfeitted.
I guess I'm not understanding how Paul had the authority to admonish those churches in regard to wrongdoing but also not have the power to remove those who wished to be rebellious and not take his admonitions.
I guess I just see things differently. I am a parent, but my kids have other 'rulers' in their lives also who have the authority to make decisions that affect their lives even without my input nor choice in the matter.
If Paul didn't have authority over those churches, I'm not clear on how he could make commands of them nor admonish them in any way. Help me out here.
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Bro. Pew, things are winding down here and I need to stay close to the kitchen for now (big supper deal here tonight).
I do intend to get back to this though because I would like to try and address your questions.
Thanks for the heads up and sharing the perspective from your view. I have owed a response to CS for some time now and have been remiss....so I am not throwing any stones.
I'lll check back from time to time....Friday nights on apostolic boards are often a cricket concert so I'll look back every so often.
I do want to be mindful that this is Rico's starter.
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Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath [James 1:19]
I am blessed with a wonderful pastor and he has been a part of my life for 50 years! Even though I have been on the mission field 40 years I still talk to him usually once a week.He is not the overbearing type...very kind and a true pastor...
I don´t think I would want a mafia lord over me...
So when we talk of sharing our life, our plans our hopes and dreams with someone we need to pray that the right man of God be put into our life. That does not always mean we will hear things that please us but we will hear things that are right.
A real pastor does not have his nose where it does not belong...(just my opinion)
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Brother, I am not called to preach to the Church, so getting approval from a pastor for me to preach to his flock isn't going to be an issue.
Also, this isn't about doing what I want. If I had my way someone else would be going through this.
Lastly, what makes you think I won't have someone I can call on for advice? Why do you think that because I am not interested in becoming a member of a church that that makes me a maverick, bound to fail? Your thinking has become institutionalized.
Rico, I was attempting to provide you insite on the way men think. what ever applies to your situation, you feel free to take to heart. just ignor the rest. while it applies in general across the board, i do know have any knowelge that I can say applies to your situation.
All i have to go on is the very first post in this thread. and thus i gave what the preception could be. Like I said, there is nothing to stop you. If you have cover, then that is wonderful.
I will say that when a guy says they dont want to be part of a church, many will assume that the fellow is not teachable. I dont know nothing about you. I dont know if that applies or not. So I pray that you walk the path that God has for you and find what you are looking for and what God intends bro.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
I guess I'm not understanding how Paul had the authority to admonish those churches in regard to wrongdoing but also not have the power to remove those who wished to be rebellious and not take his admonitions.
I guess I just see things differently. I am a parent, but my kids have other 'rulers' in their lives also who have the authority to make decisions that affect their lives even without my input nor choice in the matter.
If Paul didn't have authority over those churches, I'm not clear on how he could make commands of them nor admonish them in any way. Help me out here.
I'll make this attempt to see if it helps.
Authorities operate within jurisdictions.
True authorities have authority because they can restrict or remove a liberty, aka put in bonds, exile, or even take away life.
If Paul appointed any one what REALM or jurisdiction is being operated in? The body of CHRIST? I say no.
The temporal realm of human conduct? I say yes.
God has given us this treasure as members IN CHRIST and in his wisdom LEFT us in this life as ambassators. Two dramatically distinct REALMS are being moved in and life is being experienced within.
In matters involving those things which are SEEN, Paul, in accordance with whatever God provided as increase, had a mission and calling to set many things of the shared experience...the community-based issues, in order. But these are all involving the shared stuff.
Do you see a scriptural evidence of Paul commanding Demas to prison for forsaking them in his love for the present world.
Do you see Paul demonstrating his authority to levy punitive actions with respect to Diotrophes(sp?) for loving the preeminent seats?
Was it Peter's authority that operated the punitive measures that resulted in the death of Ananias and Sapphira?
Guides do not have authority over the people they LEAD.
WE CHOOSE our guides based our knowledge of them, where they have already been, their live's agreement with the scripture.
If God has determined that we are subject to a delegated authority involving some man placed over our life, ALL we would have to do to be SAVED is OBEY a man. If that is the case, a rent veil and a pierced side were not needed.
As many as are lead by the spirit THEY are SONS of God.
Are only our GUIDES sons? Since afterall we are just obeying the leading of a man, not the Spirit of God. What does that make us...disciples of a man?
The issue is WHAT REALM are we in and what authorities are in operation in that REALM.
If you cross a boundary, you enter a new REALM.
Look around and ask yourself, what operations of authority are in operation in this particular circumstance and what categories to they have dominion over?
__________________
Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath [James 1:19]
True authorities have authority because they can restrict or remove a liberty, aka put in bonds, exile, or even take away life.
If Paul appointed any one what REALM or jurisdiction is being operated in? The body of CHRIST? I say no.
The temporal realm of human conduct? I say yes.
God has given us this treasure as members IN CHRIST and in his wisdom LEFT us in this life as ambassators. Two dramatically distinct REALMS are being moved in and life is being experienced within.
In matters involving those things which are SEEN, Paul, in accordance with whatever God provided as increase, had a mission and calling to set many things of the shared experience...the community-based issues, in order. But these are all involving the shared stuff.
Do you see a scriptural evidence of Paul commanding Demas to prison for forsaking them in his love for the present world.
Do you see Paul demonstrating his authority to levy punitive actions with respect to Diotrophes(sp?) for loving the preeminent seats?
Was it Peter's authority that operated the punitive measures that resulted in the death of Ananias and Sapphira?
Guides do not have authority over the people they LEAD.
WE CHOOSE our guides based our knowledge of them, where they have already been, their live's agreement with the scripture.
If God has determined that we are subject to a delegated authority involving some man placed over our life, ALL we would have to do to be SAVED is OBEY a man. If that is the case, a rent veil and a pierced side were not needed.
As many as are lead by the spirit THEY are SONS of God.
Are only our GUIDES sons? Since afterall we are just obeying the leading of a man, not the Spirit of God. What does that make us...disciples of a man?
The issue is WHAT REALM are we in and what authorities are in operation in that REALM.
If you cross a boundary, you enter a new REALM.
Look around and ask yourself, what operations of authority are in operation in this particular circumstance and what categories to they have dominion over?
When something is wrong with your body, there are several things that can be going on.
1. Nerve damage to the extremity interrupts messages from the brain.
2. Nerve damage to the brain interrupts messages from the extremity.
If something is in your eye and your eye is refusing to blink, there is a problem. That problem may lead to blindness if it's not taken care of. This means that your brain must find some other way to correct that problem. This would involve sending messages to your hands to get into that eye and remove the problem.
If your hand is stuck in a door, your brain is telling it to remove itself, but it cannot. It's stuck. Your brain then looks for other messengers that can come to the hand's rescue to it can operate once again. This might include using vocal cords to holler and inform someone to free your hand.
This is the way I see it. Your brain is the center of all things to your body. This is how I see Christ.
Your eyes and hands are like the members of the church. If something is wrong with your eyes and your hands are called by the brain to help, what happens if your hands won't cooperate? The eyes are damaged, but the hands are at fault for not helping as they should have.
If your hand is stuck and the only way out if your neighbor, what if your neighbor refuses to help? Your hand is damaged and it's your neighbor's fault, because had he come to your rescue, your hand would have been fine.
I see God (brain) sending out messages but sometimes something is wrong and the message isn't sent out. God calls on other means (hands and voices) to aid in getting that message sent. If we refuse, it's our fault, because God gave us that authority to fix the situation.
What would happen if the eye decided it wanted to keep the particles in it, thus causing damage? What would happen to the hand that wanted to stay stuck in the door?
The Bible says to cut it off. God didn't say He would cut it off for us. He gave us the authority to do it ourselves.
God puts people in authority over us. There wouldn't be a verse to that effect if it weren't true. This doesn't mean they lord over everything in our lives, but just what is pertinent, but they are responsible to make sure we get the message that the brain is trying to send to us. If we refuse to respond, the only option is to be cut off, and that is also Biblical.
Paul admonished those churches for their wrongdoing. No, he didn't have authority to commit them to prison for their sins, but then again, sin isn't necessarily punishable by the laws of the land. Paul didn't have the authority of the law of the land, but he did have the authority of God to say the things he did.
The Bible doesn't say if any of those churches refused to listen to Paul, but it would be interesting to know what took place if they had.
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