Do you hafta go through the pastor?

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

I am not unwilling to discuss it in the context of applications; it seemed to me that you were insisting that there was NO application of what we would call pastoral authority sanctioned by the Scripture.

Discussing the various applications and boundaries of pastoral authority have consumed more bandwidth than any other thing on these forums. I have discussed it until I am bored with it. That is basically at the crux of all the Standards threads. They've been done to death.

As the pastor of our church, there are some things I take the oversight of.

I determine who preaches in our pulpit.

I cast vision for the local assembly, and oversee the execution of that vision.

I determine, through the guidance of Scripture and the Spirit, the expectations we have for our leadership within the Body.

I preach the Gospel and teach the Word regularly, and endeavor to teach principles that equip the Body for maturity, ministry, and spiritual growth.

Because they trust me, saints ask me for advice and counsel on various matters when they feel the need. I do my best to give them wise counsel.

Any level of submission they give me is entirely voluntary, as I cannot force anyone to do anything, and have no desire to.

Very well said, Elder...

Don't the traditional fear tactics conflict with the bigger picture that God wants people to worship Him out of their own free will? Or was that just another non-biblical fairy tale that we learned while growing up in Sunday School?

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

I am not unwilling to discuss it in the context of applications; it seemed to me that you were insisting that there was NO application of what we would call pastoral authority sanctioned by the Scripture.

Discussing the various applications and boundaries of pastoral authority have consumed more bandwidth than any other thing on these forums. I have discussed it until I am bored with it. That is basically at the crux of all the Standards threads. They've been done to death.

As the pastor of our church, there are some things I take the oversight of.

I determine who preaches in our pulpit.

I cast vision for the local assembly, and oversee the execution of that vision.

I determine, through the guidance of Scripture and the Spirit, the expectations we have for our leadership within the Body.

I preach the Gospel and teach the Word regularly, and endeavor to teach principles that equip the Body for maturity, ministry, and spiritual growth.

Because they trust me, saints ask me for advice and counsel on various matters when they feel the need. I do my best to give them wise counsel.

Any level of submission they give me is entirely voluntary, as I cannot force anyone to do anything, and have no desire to.

Good post, CS. Your Biblical wisdom and Godly common sense go way beyond your years! There is nothing so enjoyable as a clear, concise thinker who can also communicate!

Have a blessed day!

Originally Posted by Sheltiedad

Don't the traditional fear tactics conflict with the bigger picture that God wants people to worship Him out of their own free will? Or was that just another non-biblical fairy tale that we learned while growing up in Sunday School?

Shelite,

Off topic, but your sig line has Chris Thomas King (the king was added while at LSU) in it. I have played sax with both Chris and his dad, Tabby at Tabby's Blues Box on the Thursday night Jam sessions.

Just an anecdote of no value. Carry on!

[Barb]

Do pastors have a pastor...someone who watches for their soul and gives them counsel?!

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by Rico

As usual, you've made some good points, Brother. I am not too sure I have figured exactly what tbpew is saying, but I think what he's saying is that men do not have the authority God has in our lives, and the church has managed to somehow give the pastor that same authority. I have posted in favor of pastoral authority before, but I have yet to find out how far that authority extends, other than to say it does not extend beyond what's written in the Word.

With that said, I would be interested in your take on Paul and John the Baptist not following the conventional path into ministry. Thanks.

John the Baptist was a unique man with a ministry that was prophesied hundreds of years before he was born. He was never intended to be the normative example of New Testament ministry.

As for Paul, he was also an exception in some ways. Because of his past, he was not well accepted by the Jerusalem church.

It is important to note that he did return to Jerusalem and check himself with Peter and John.

He demonstrated his cooperation with and even submission to the counsel of the elders and apostles at Jerusalem.

Rico, there are definitely exceptions to what would be considered the conventional path to ministry, but there are no exceptions to working harmoniously with the Body of Christ. There are no Lone Rangers for Jesus.

Authority only comes through submission. We all need to be accountable to someone.We all need a pastor. I need one, and have one.

Exceptions are exceptions because of something unique in the purpose of God. God does not make exceptions because someone just doesn't want to be bothered with being accountable to anyone. And please don't think I am accusing you of that. I don't think that is the case. I am just speaking in general terms.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

John the Baptist was a unique man with a ministry that was prophesied hundreds of years before he was born. He was never intended to be the normative example of New Testament ministry.

As for Paul, he was also an exception in some ways. Because of his past, he was not well accepted by the Jerusalem church.

It is important to note that he did return to Jerusalem and check himself with Peter and John.

He demonstrated his cooperation with and even submission to the counsel of the elders and apostles at Jerusalem.

Rico, there are definitely exceptions to what would be considered the conventional path to ministry, but there are no exceptions to working harmoniously with the Body of Christ. There are no Lone Rangers for Jesus.

Authority only comes through submission. We all need to be accountableto someone.We all need a pastor. I need one, and have one.

Exceptions are exceptions because of something unique in the purpose of God. God does not make exceptions because someone just doesn't want to be bothered with being accountable to anyone. And please don't think I am accusing you of that. I don't think that is the case. I am just speaking in general terms.

You answered my question...thank you..

Originally Posted by philjones

Shelite,

Off topic, but your sig line has Chris Thomas King (the king was added while at LSU) in it. I have played sax with both Chris and his dad, Tabby at Tabby's Blues Box on the Thursday night Jam sessions.

Just an anecdote of no value. Carry on!

Very cool! I hope someday someone I know will be famous, but not yet. lol.

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by Barb

Do pastors have a pastor...someone who watches for their soul and gives them counsel?!

This pastor certainly does.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

This pastor certainly does.

Thank you, sir...

Just from this layperson's view, I think people make a huge mistake when they refuse to submit to authority deeming it dictatorship or whatever.

Regardless of how we may feel about his doctrine, I think a huge mistake in the ministry of JS was his refusal to submit to those who had rule, and as a result, lost not only the fellowship of his organization, but the respect.

We can never be so grown that we do not need to be accountable to someone.