*** [Blockbuster] NCO and Griffin Weigh In on TV Debate: Devolution***

[SDG]

Posted yesterday on the New Church Order website

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The Devolution of Government- Globally & in the Church
by James Griffin, ESQ

http://www.newchurchorder.com/content/view/83/45/

One principle long recognized in the Church is that movements in governments and principalities often reflect what is happening in the spirit-world and vice versa. Also as pointed out in a previous article in this forum sometimes a new phenomenon will give raise to a new vernacular. The term “devolution” is one currently making the rounds among social scientists and economists. It is used to describe a globally impacting trend currently epicentered in Europe but spreading.

Devolution is the break down of strong federal government in favor of regional, cultural, and economic units. Examples include the breakup of the USSR into Russia and several satellite countries. This directly resulted in the explosion of Yugoslavia into approximately six (and counting) countries. No industrialized country is immune including such powerhouses as United Kingdom, France, Spain, Italy, and even Germany. There are currently no less than 18 such hot spots in Europe and new countries are splintering also on the continents of Africa and Asia.

However, how does this apply to the Church? Even as this article is being composed, one of the premier “church” organizations in the world is locked in such debate. The divisive question is not over the plan of salvation, but what means of technology is “holy enough” to be used to disseminate the gospel! Proponents from both sides have publicly stated that no matter what the vote on the resolution they intend on withdrawing from fellowship and go independent.

Such mentality is foreign to Scripture. Has not the fragmentation and infighting among religious bodies and church organizations gone on long enough? Is it not time to concentrate on our commonality instead? How does refusing to fellowship over such matters (by either side) fit into agape? How much more could be done for the kingdom with the blending of our talents and gifts?

No one would deny any denomination has an absolute right to delineate its standards, and seek to uphold them within their organization. However, to deny fellowship with believers over such matters smacks of elitism at best, and is pharisaical legalism at worst.

It is also understandable that those caught in the crossfire of such infighting would desire to be totally independent. But those brethren so wounded might want to recall the history of our own country. When the colonials successfully overcame what they perceived to be a tyrannical government, they immediately formed an alternative. They realized that non-governance equates to anarchy.

The New Testament clearly recognizes strong governance within the church body. This should of course be centered in the five-fold ministry. It is beyond the scope of this article to go into how such a unified governing body should be set up, but we should hope that at the least, men and women everywhere would start the necessary dialogue.

[SDG]

Clearly, brother Griffin is calling for unity and dialogue.

[Nahum]

This is a quite aggressive article from someone outside of the org. I will comment on this later this evening.

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

This is a quite aggressive article from someone outside of the org. I will comment on this later this evening.

PP,

I agree that the article is aggressive... but is it wrong? Have we as a movement (not just the UPC) lost the proper perspective... the ability to see things in their relative importance? Has our emphasis so shifted from the vanishing point that we have become a skewed, unfocused picture of what God intended us to be? Has the Kingdom of God (righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost) been lost in the trappings of meat and drink? Have we disinherited our spiritually born, full blood brethren when only the earnest of the inheritance is actually ours? Have we sought our differences to the detriment of our likeness?

I am concerned that one of the other things that accompanies devolution is often genocide. God forbid that we would bite and devour one another as though we were the enemy.

The UPC needs to reestablish itself on the basic and fundamental doctrine as stated in the articles of faith and they need to recommit to the principle of unity!

Enough of my rambling... I will try to respond in a more structured manner later.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Posted yesterday on the New Church Order website

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

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The Devolution of Government- Globally & in the Church
by James Griffin, ESQ

http://www.newchurchorder.com/content/view/83/45/

... The term “devolution” is one currently making the rounds among social scientists and economists. It is used to describe a globally impacting trend currently epicentered in Europe but spreading.

Devolution is the break down of strong federal government in favor of regional, cultural, and economic units. Examples include the breakup of the USSR into Russia and several satellite countries. This directly resulted in the explosion of Yugoslavia into approximately six (and counting) countries. No industrialized country is immune including such powerhouses as United Kingdom, France, Spain, Italy, and even Germany. There are currently no less than 18 such hot spots in Europe and new countries are splintering also on the continents of Africa and Asia. ...

The writer makes a good point, but consider what he is using as the example of "devolution," the break up of larger states into more numerous smaller states. Especially consider Europe. Go to this link, on the left side of the page is a blue bar with a series of links: Download Samples; Maps 1 - 1000; Maps 1000-2000; etc. The numbers (1000-2000) represent years A.D. Start at year 1 and then scroll down to the bottom. Watch the changing color patters on the maps of Europe. Notice especially the region of central Europe from Germany down through Italy. When you get to the year 1000, push the BACK button on your browser and do the same for the years 1000-2000; and so forth.

Watch as nations and then empires rise and break apart, only for new nation states to be reborn out of the same components. It's a cyclical process. It's not a one-way movement going inexorably in only a single direction. The writer's point about "devolution" may hold true for some times and in some places. However, when the circumstances warrant, those same components will reform and reemerge again and again.

Mfblume may like this one: the pattern of the rise of the "Ten Toed Kingdom" prophesied in Daniel and Revelation might be looked upon as just such a cycle. Instead of Revelation being seen as a book that tells us what will happen, it can be look upon as a book that tells us what happens. There is a pattern and cycle to history that is being revealed for us there.

The same thing can be seen in most all human endeavors. People consolidate to achieve greater efficiency and more power. Then a threshold is reach and the structure "devolves" in some way as people seek more freedom. Structures and institutions that last take this into account in the way they are organized. They are flexible and can absorb the contraction and expansion cycles without disinegrating completely.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by pelathais

The writer makes a good point, but consider what he is using as the example of "devolution," the break up of larger states into more numerous smaller states. Especially consider Europe. Go to this link, on the left side of the page is a blue bar with a series of links: Download Samples; Maps 1 - 1000; Maps 1000-2000; etc. The numbers (1000-2000) represent years A.D. Start at year 1 and then scroll down to the bottom. Watch the changing color patters on the maps of Europe. Notice especially the region of central Europe from Germany down through Italy. When you get to the year 1000, push the BACK button on your browser and do the same for the years 1000-2000; and so forth.

Watch as nations and then empires rise and break apart, only for new nation states to be reborn out of the same components. It's a cyclical process. It's not a one-way movement going inexorably in only a single direction. The writer's point about "devolution" may hold true for some times and in some places. However, when the circumstances warrant, those same components will reform and reemerge again and again.

Mfblume may like this one: the pattern of the rise of the "Ten Toed Kingdom" prophesied in Daniel and Revelation might be looked upon as just such a cycle. Instead of Revelation being seen as a book that tells us what will happen, it can be look upon as a book that tells us what happens. There is a pattern and cycle to history that is being revealed for us there.

The same thing can be seen in most all human endeavors. People consolidate to achieve greater efficiency and more power. Then a threshold is reach and the structure "devolves" in some way as people seek more freedom.

How can your view be applied to the Church?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by philjones

PP,

I agree that the article is aggressive... but is it wrong? Have we as a movement (not just the UPC) lost the proper perspective... the ability to see things in their relative importance? Has our emphasis so shifted from the vanishing point that we have become a skewed, unfocused picture of what God intended us to be? Has the Kingdom of God (righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost) been lost in the trappings of meat and drink? Have we disinherited our spiritually born, full blood brethren when only the earnest of the inheritance is actually ours? Have we sought our differences to the detriment of our likeness?

I am concerned that one of the other things that accompanies devolution is often genocide. God forbid that we would bite and devour one another as though we were the enemy.

The UPC needs to reestablish itself on the basic and fundamental doctrine as stated in the articles of faith and they need to recommit to the principle of unity!

Enough of my rambling... I will try to respond in a more structured manner later.

Hello, Phil.

Isn't this what the AS was supposed to have accomplished?

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

Originally Posted by philjones

PP,

I agree that the article is aggressive... but is it wrong? Have we as a movement (not just the UPC) lost the proper perspective... the ability to see things in their relative importance? Has our emphasis so shifted from the vanishing point that we have become a skewed, unfocused picture of what God intended us to be? Has the Kingdom of God (righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost) been lost in the trappings of meat and drink? Have we disinherited our spiritually born, full blood brethren when only the earnest of the inheritance is actually ours? Have we sought our differences to the detriment of our likeness?

I am concerned that one of the other things that accompanies devolution is often genocide. God forbid that we would bite and devour one another as though we were the enemy.

The UPC needs to reestablish itself on the basic and fundamental doctrine as stated in the articles of faith and they need to recommit to the principle of unity!

Enough of my rambling... I will try to respond in a more structured manner later.

You know someone mentioned my "negative posts" on another thread; however, with a little big of imagination someone might view this post as somewhat negative if analysed in its entirety.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by FRINGE_NUTTER

You know someone mentioned my "negative posts" on another thread; however, with a little big of imagination someone might view this post as somewhat negative if analysed in its entirety.

Why and how is it negative, FN?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Hello, Phil.

Isn't this what the AS was supposed to have accomplished?

The whole intent of the Westburg resolution ... and the AS was to exclude those that had a differing view on the New Birth ....

Nothing about the AS ... is about unity ... it seeks to stifle rather tolerate.