*** [Blockbuster] NCO and Griffin Weigh In on TV Debate: Devolution***

[James Griffin]

Originally Posted by pelathais

The writer makes a good point, but consider what he is using as the example of "devolution," the break up of larger states into more numerous smaller states. Especially consider Europe. Go to this link, on the left side of the page is a blue bar with a series of links: Download Samples; Maps 1 - 1000; Maps 1000-2000; etc. The numbers (1000-2000) represent years A.D. Start at year 1 and then scroll down to the bottom. Watch the changing color patters on the maps of Europe. Notice especially the region of central Europe from Germany down through Italy. When you get to the year 1000, push the BACK button on your browser and do the same for the years 1000-2000; and so forth.

Watch as nations and then empires rise and break apart, only for new nation states to be reborn out of the same components. It's a cyclical process. It's not a one-way movement going inexorably in only a single direction. The writer's point about "devolution" may hold true for some times and in some places. However, when the circumstances warrant, those same components will reform and reemerge again and again.

Mfblume may like this one: the pattern of the rise of the "Ten Toed Kingdom" prophesied in Daniel and Revelation might be looked upon as just such a cycle. Instead of Revelation being seen as a book that tells us what will happen, it can be look upon as a book that tells us what happens. There is a pattern and cycle to history that is being revealed for us there.

The same thing can be seen in most all human endeavors. People consolidate to achieve greater efficiency and more power. Then a threshold is reach and the structure "devolves" in some way as people seek more freedom. Structures and institutions that last take this into account in the way they are organized. They are flexible and can absorb the contraction and expansion cycles without disinegrating completely.

Excellent comment! I did not coin the term, it was recently invented by social scientists to describe the CURRENT state of government, especially Europe. The thought is exactly what you said. However, the hope is that we have fragmented more than enough, isn't it time to reverse the trend? How do we as the last generation of the US church start taking the pieces and together build something greater than can be done by factions which expend more energy, effort and creativity fighting each other than reaching a lost world.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

Excellent comment! I did not coin the term, it was recently invented by social scientists to describe the CURRENT state of government, especially Europe. The thought is exactly what you said. However, the hope is that we have fragmented more than enough, isn't it time to reverse the trend? How do we as the generation of the US church start taking the pieces and together build something greater than can be done by factions which expend more energy, effort and creativity fighting each other than reaching a lost world.

But if it is cyclical and part of the process ... perhaps it is necessary. I see a movement in which God is breaking down denominations .... and institutions throughout Christendom for His greater purpose.

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Why and how is it negative, FN?

I didn't say that the post IS negative...I said with a little bit of imagination, it might be seen that way. He is speculating and asking questions that seem to state that the UPCI and the church has gotten off track. To hear the mantra of some of the leaders in UPCI, UPCI is "the church and most everything is rosey and lala." Read the questions. They are not about the positivity within the church, but the "off the course" track of the church (or, if you will, the negative happenings in the church).

Gotta use the imagination. I don't feel that I was being negative in my posts earlier and just kidding a bit here with philjones. Facing the exodus that I speculate is coming and facing what he is mentioning in the post I quoted are parts of REALITY, imho.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

Excellent comment! I did not coin the term, it was recently invented by social scientists to describe the CURRENT state of government, especially Europe. The thought is exactly what you said. However, the hope is that we have fragmented more than enough, isn't it time to reverse the trend? How do we as the generation of the US church start taking the pieces and together build something greater than can be done by factions which expend more energy, effort and creativity fighting each other than reaching a lost world.

Very few institutions survive more than two generations without major reinvention. The UPC has resisted recreation for a long time.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

How can your view be applied to the Church?

It's difficult to show it in a series of map-like graphics such as I linked to earlier. First we have to quibble and argue about "What is the 'Church'" for a long time and then argue about what constitutes "an organization" beyond the local church level.

That being said, my point earlier was only to show that the current perceived "devolution" shouldn't be thought of as an "OMG every ORG is falling apart" type of scenario. Rather, it is an expected pattern of human behavior.

For organizations to endure (let's pick on the UPC, since they hardly get mentioned on this board ) they must have flexibility. To avoid having your organization (denomination?) break up for good it is usually best to have a structure based upon local control and autonomy. That way regional and cultural differences won't always be pulling at the body.

The RCC followed the opposite plan in most ways with a rigid hierarchy. The result was a constant series of war between National Churches (the Hussite Wars, the destruction of the Celtic Church, the eternal battle with the Eastern Churches, Henry VIII, the Protestant Reformation, ad infinitum, ad nauseum...). So that today, most people equate Catholicism with wars, crusades and persecutions.

If the UPCI is to endure, they must continue to allow the local churches and districts to exercise the bulk of the control. To become a minister in the UPC you don't really even need "HQ's" except to serve as administrators. If KH or JJ doesn’t like someone's preaching- but the district doesn't mind too much- the district will always win. To be "saved" in the UPC you don't need the UPC at all; you just need that local church. This structure can be very good and flexible.

Where the strains come about is from competing components within the whole organization. The Western District may want Oregon and Washington to follow in lock-step with their standards. Ohio thinks we need wicked cool tie wear. Kansas wants everyone to become ascetics with mid-scalp hair parts. Florida wants their baggy jams while no one wants Wisconsin to have baggy jams. (TIC, folks!)

But everyone's different and not everyone is "okay" with that; so we have problems. We need to develop something that will allow more flexibility. If one guy with a little power is always allowed to keep coming back to GC every year with a resolution because he has a grudge with some other guy in Idaho - we will always have problems. It's that old sibling rivalry - "I'm going to nag mom until she does spank my little brother..." Finally the little brother gets a spanking- but the rest of us are puzzled why there is no justice in the system.

So, we will always have the consolidate-break apart-consolidate cycle; at least until we become something other than the human beings that we are today.

[James Griffin]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Very few institutions survive more than two generations without major reinvention. The UPC has resisted recreation for a long time.

In fairness the original article was I believe much larger in scope than just the UPC. In reading it again the situation goes far beyond the confines of ANY organization. The current attitudes going into the GC just provide a convenient example. Isn't the same attitude to a degree existent even in independents??

There is no bashing, no dictating how denominations should control their standards internally. It is addressing the issue of refusing to fellowship with those who are not in perfect agreement on things such as standards. This should be seen for what is it, and the language describing that spirit is appropriate.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

Excellent comment! I did not coin the term, it was recently invented by social scientists to describe the CURRENT state of government, especially Europe. The thought is exactly what you said. However, the hope is that we have fragmented more than enough, isn't it time to reverse the trend? How do we as the last generation of the US church start taking the pieces and together build something greater than can be done by factions which expend more energy, effort and creativity fighting each other than reaching a lost world.

Oh brother... you dare dream of the "Holy Grail" and a land literally flowing with milk and honey! I'm with you, but... how? We need to learn to talk to one another first without feeling threatened by our brethren.

[James Griffin]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Oh brother... you dare dream of the "Holy Grail" and a land literally flowing with milk and honey! I'm with you, but... how? We need to learn to talk to one another first without feeling threatened by our brethren.

So dare I say a "new thing" :sshhh

Agape love among Apostolics truly a miracle to usher in the rapture.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Very few institutions survive more than two generations without major reinvention. The UPC has resisted recreation for a long time.

crakjak! Love you bro!

Your post reminds me of when I first arrived at Bible School. We had a night where the school had reserved a local Recreation Building for the students. I went in and kind of gravitated toward the empty pool tables. The dean of students approached me as I was racking up the balls and said, "We don't play pool in the ... District." I was dumbstruck. The only thing I could mumble was "But my pastor has a pool table in his basement..." To which he replied, "That isn't in the ... District." LOL.

Resisting recreation. From m-w.com

Main Entry: rec·re·a·tion
Pronunciation: "re-krE-'A-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English recreacion, from Anglo-French, from Latin recreation-, recreatio restoration to health, from recreare to create anew, restore, refresh, from re- + creare to create
: refreshment of strength and spirits after work; also : a means of refreshment or diversion : HOBBY

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

In fairness the original article was I believe much larger in scope than just the UPC. In reading it again the situation goes far beyond the confines of ANY organization. The current attitudes going into the GC just provide a convenient example. Isn't the same attitude to a degree existent even in independents??

There is no bashing, no dictating how denominations should control their standards internally. It is addressing the issue of refusing to fellowship with those who are not in perfect agreement on things such as standards. This should be seen for what is it, and the language describing that spirit is appropriate.

I agree with the original post, just using the opportunity to propose that the UPC is going thru a normal transition. Unfortunately some orgs do not transition to a higher purpose and function, I sincerely hope that the UPC can do so.