E.B. wrote in the conclusion portion of his last post to Rico…
My general reaction to the spirit of this quoted portion is AMEN, wise counsels.
The odd part that seems to contradict itself is that E.B. has identified PASTOR as the wheel in the middle of the wheel. I feel confident to say (subject of course to any clarification from him), E.B. is advancing a view that a PASTOR is a SINGLE person in somebody’s life. This despite his eloquent and thoughtful acknowledgement that very little is prosperous in God when constrained within one singular VESSEL.
How did PASTOR make it to such a singular preeminent spiritual gifting when certainly everyone can acknowledge Apostles, prophets, evangelists and teachers as also being the wisdom of God for the edification of his own body?
My vision for the body of Christ is this:
Note: To set up the scene I ask you consider (get in your mind’s eye) three things:
1. The neighborhood you live in
2. The original construct of the UPCI in 1948.
3. The US Constitution (A Federal government established to protect individual and State’s rights)
Shared experiences and desired outcomes unite us in a willingness to forego individual liberties and submit ourselves to joining together to achieve something that could not be experienced separately. That is good because it is good when men do not strive, but instead, submit themselves one to another so that the whole can exceed its parts. That is what a neighborhood does. Public water, public roads, public air, public civility, is served by the common needs having a vast plurality of resources contributing to establish and maintain these ‘quality of life’ issues. That is what God has provided his church.
Every member of God’s Kingdom should experience life in Christ as a member-minister joining the UPCI in 1948. We are vastly different in the specifics of our callings and elections, but we share in those things established in the principles of the doctrine of Christ. An assembly of priests; everyone called to fellowship with God on his Holy Mountain. No one with a preeminent seat because the diversity of the body is established in service to the body not in RULE. Let he that is greatest among all of these, be servant to all. God has provided this to the members of his body.
Our constitution was established to protect the liberties of the individual while seeking to provide a means to serve the COMMON needs that a nation of states would face.
The preamble:
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
How many words will go into amendments for a TV advertisement resolution today? In such few words the agreement for the common/shared realm is enumerated in the above quote that will inherently embody the securing of the blessings of liberty to ourselves. That is what God has intended for the fellowship of his Saints.
Our present delivery system of men who declare themselves to be “pastors by call from God” does not insure and protect individual liberties.
But if we, AS INDIVIDUALS, are empowered to make the decision to forego (submit) our own liberty for the greater common cause, then individual liberty is fully maintained while the common cause is served.
Ephesians 4:11 is about God-supplied gifts to serve the shared experience, to administer God’s counsels for the constitution (so to speak) of his own body. His Spirit will do the work and when his Spirit is working in these areas their will be a manifestation of 1 or more of those ministrations.
We need to decide what WE AS INDIVIDUALS share as common goals. When we leave our private or individual lives and enter into the common/shared realm, we need to have agreement about how the giftings provided by God for such matters operate.
........
I included E.B.’s PeeWee Herman reference above. If it is possible that we could be receiving counsels to OBEY the PeeWee Herman that God has placed OVER us, there is a foundational error in the premise of the delivery system.
At this point everyone seems to have their own image of what a PASTOR is (and should be) based on experience with a system of member-ministers in an organization of men. I DO NOT believe that the SUPERMAJORITY of men who call themselves PASTOR have a PASTOR in their life that operates in the quantity and specificity that the local guy does with what he thinks are HIS SHEEP. If they did, we are truly a denomination. The dynamic unfolding at Tampa as I type this is pretty much, proof-positive, that at least 50% of the voting members there do not believe they joined a denomination.
While I can agree with some of what you've offered Rico, and the Scriptures stated illustrate perfectly just why the sola pastora system is ultimately inept and unBiblical, I have a question.
What do you advise when men tell you NO and God tells you yes?
I commend critical thinking and placing what we believe under inspection.
Now let's go through this bit by bit so you can understand what I was trying to say to Rico.
If we really look at the true system that God chose for His Body we see a group that are accountable to God and GOOD COUNSEL. I have been around people who have told me God told them this and God told them that, and all while their family members had these glazed over looks in their eyes. They usually quote the scripture that you should obey God rather than man, but yet they never consider the rest of the context of that scripture that proves that the apostles were a group of submitted ministers who worked out what God told them to. When I say that, I mean they had meetings to discuss visions (As Peter on the rooftop and seeing the sheet let down from heaven) and discussions concerning false doctrine.
We have no lone rangers breaking from the group and going out alone by themselves. We have not one example in the NT of any lone preacher going out and telling the rest of the Brothers that he is going to follow God and that he has his own personal revelation. We do have plenty of instances where an individual who gathers people unto themselves and surround themselves with Yes-Men who reinforce the would-be-leaders fantasy and cause un-suspecting souls to be lead astray.
The scriptures that I had quoted nails down the principle that we are not to be without Brothers who can tell us that they DON'T SEE what we may be seeing, or DON'T UNDERSTAND what we are trying to relay to them.
If God is telling you something and he is laying it on your mind, Jesus is also able to make the way for you to present your argument in a manner that can convince anyone who LOVES God. Also those who are mentors, pastors, elders, preachers and leaders who are counseling you have been around you for a good amount of time and have come to know your faithfulness.
I'm not talking about a despot or some control freak; I'm talking about men of God who are accountable to men of God. Let's talk about a good situation and not a bad situation. Bad situations are no brainers and the Word of God tells us how to deal with Nicolatian spirits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theophilus
While you ponder that, realize that sometimes we walk alone in this world when we follow God.
No, we are never alone if we are following Jesus Christ as the One True Living God. When we are walking alone it's usually because what we are doing is warped and weird. Also because we repel those around us and we WON'T take counsel and those who we are supposed to be accountable with. We find when we have rejected all their counsel and since people have their own lives and need to carry on, they have no choice but to allow us drift off into our own agenda.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theophilus
As long as God lives we can never be without a Shepherd, and as a result, if we follow God we have not become our own pastor.
Sounds great, but alas that's never the case. If we are truly submitted to our PASTOR Jesus Christ then we will have no problem being assembled together with Brothers and Sisters of like precious faith. We will also submit ourselves one to another and therefore we will avoid kookiness and power trips that make our families cringe. Wives and children who get a white knuckled look in their faces every time their husband's and father's get a gleam in their eyes and the pious tones of THUS SAYETH THE LORD! When a Brother can submit to his fellow Brothers and their godly advice, then families are overjoyed!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theophilus
That isn't to say that some don't. Many don't follow God, become their own pastor, start a church, and dub themselves the Man of God and lead many.
I agree with you 100% but that can be avoidable when we have Brothers who can tell us to come back to the planet earth. When we believe our own PR we are off to a place where we may never return. I would rather die in obscurity and win souls who love holiness and Acts 2:38 than some one who thinks they're God's gift to the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theophilus
Those that follow God will not be forsaken, as time goes on God works it out that the right counsel, with focused vision, and like burdens, find one another.
Again I agree a 100%, but if we cannot submit to other ministers who are walking with God, we can never expect to have anyone consider our counsel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theophilus
That is the power that moves mountains, not a bunch of cowboys and outlaws that may have teamed up for the sake of personal interest under any name, though they may accomplish something, scratch the mountain, and put up signs. These are those that flee to all quarters when things don't go their way and the mountain rumbles. They want to play little kings of the mountain and call it their own, when all the while it belongs to God.
You're correct. No argument from me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theophilus
When those that follow God submit themselves to His plan and work together with one another and with God, the mountain is moved for His glory.
AMEN!!! IN JESUS NAME!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theophilus
I don't think Rico is planning to go it alone, though he may start the journey heading out lonesome in some folk’s perception. If God has called him to this, he isn't alone in the sight of the right kind of eyes. I'm sure that as God works he will find a companion here and there. It will take courage and resolve, but such are the elements of reward.
I think we better seek some counsel way prior before doing a double flip into the Grand Canyon. With much counsel make war, I don't do anything without prayer, fasting, and considering the counsel of godly Brothers who have Jesus on their mind. I have watched many one man shows go forward for years and watched in horror as they destroyed people's lives. I like Brother Rico and seeing him ask the question to seek advice is a good sign in the right direction, I still pray that he would find solid men.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theophilus
It sure beats sitting down when someone thinks they see something kooky and tells you: "NO, play with me in my sandbox, be a part of my idea...it is not kooky, we've always done it this way"
I'm not talking about that at all, I'm not talking about despotic mindsets that are stuck in their own persona and aurora. I'm talking about godly Brothers who are solid men who want to see things happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theophilus
Rico is accountable to God first, no matter how kooky the calling might appear
Anybody can say anything but let’s see it go through the gauntlet of counsel and see how attitudes and feelings are really formed. If we have the call God will lead us and give us a mouth to speak with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theophilus
(I'm not saying that you are calling this endeavor kooky, I'm just building my case). If it is from God, there will be plenty of opposition, but beyond that, plenty of help to be accountable one to another, provided that he isn't discouraged to chalk it up to a flight of fancy and told to have a seat.
I hear what you're saying I just hope our Brother seeks the mind of God and the counsel of Apostolic Brothers.
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
If anyone is called of God the Pastor will know. Also the Pastor is NOT a BOOKING AGENT, booking agents are for entertianers. If a man has a call on their life Jesus will make a way for that Brother to go forward and preach and the pastor will help any way he can.
Brother, I was not trying to say the pastor would be a booking agent. You know as well as I do that pastors call each other up to see who they have available to preach this or that service while he goes away for this or that reason. That is a very common practice in apostolic churches and is one way new ministers get pulpit time.
You have to understand that Paul was already taught by the grandson of Hillel, and Paul was a called man of God. Paul then went to James and Peter to make sure he was on the same page, but Paul understood that he needed to be acountable to other Brothers.
I know that Paul eventually met up with James and Peter, but it was YEARS later, after he had already been preaching. The point I was making is that he didn't consult with them BEFORE he started preaching.
He most certainly did, read the first chapter of Galatians; Paul went and conferred with James and Peter. Paul wanted to make sure that his notes matched with theirs. Remember Jesus sent out His followers two by two, and if you have a teacher, mentor, elder, or pastor, you need to make sure that you are not flying solo.
Read the text for yourself. It was years later, not right away.
John was a Levite from the tribe of Levi, the Levis was the teaching tribe. Hear o Israel the Lord God is One and you are to TEACH that to your children.
Brother Rico we are talking Israel here not Dog Patch USA.
This has nothing to do with what I am talking about.
These people had teaching all around them, but to answer your question John was a Levi.
I don't believe that God would contradict His pattern of the community, and of the Body of Christ (refer to 1st Corinthians 12)
What prison in America just allows anyone solo without a backing from a church to teach their prisoners? You must be talking about a one on one situation? Could you explain how an individual could gain access to prisoners with out being part of an established church family?
Brother, all anyone needs is permission from whoever is running the jail. The state run prisons and the federal prisons have guidelines that include ordination of whomever is in charge of the ministry. Getting ordained isn't an issue. There are organizations geared just for prison ministry that I could join, if I choose to take that route. To get into the local jail just involves convincing the sheriff to let me in.
You need some kind of fellowship of accountabilty, you need some Brothers who are also called to the work. There is no way around it.
Nothing says I have to have someone with me when I go into jails. I would feel much better about it if I had two or three people with me, but it isn't a requirement.
Well, then that is an attitude and not at all scriptural. Preaching to hard guys and then you have no back up? No one with you? Are you of the same caliber of the Apostle Paul? Paul had men with him that he was accountable to, and he traveled with them and he was not a wandering star.
It's not an attitude, Benincasa. If it is then Paul had an attitude when he started preaching the Gospel, because he didn't go get backing from anyone other than God.
Qualified how? Would you mind telling me how?
Brother, I have already preached in different prisons and know that God has anointed me for this work. Are you going to second guess what I have already experienced?
Some were SENT and most just WENT. Don't be part of the latter group.
As I have already stated, this isn't about doing things my way. This is about whether or not I am going to let circumstances decide for me if I will obey God.
I agree with E.B. here. Just from my own experience, those times in my life when I just "rolled the dice" so to speak- I always lost. Those times when I planned things and sought counsel and got support- well, I still lost sometimes, but those were also the only times that I really had success.
God made us to need each other. That was the whole point of bringing the animals through the garden. God Himself wasn't surprised at the outcome. But the whole thing serves as a lesson that no one man is truly qualifies to go at it alone. And I'm not just talking marriage (Adam and Eve) here. They had the responsibility also of creating the human race- something you need a marriage to do.
But we as individuals also need other people to support us. What E.B. has shared here is really good. Those men in prison are a hard lot to deal with. You probably already know this. In time you may find disciples and helpers from within the walls. But especially at the outset, you need good godly help and counsel.
That's the point. I have people I can talk with about this.
I concur. Nobody...NOBODY should go it alone. Yet it is my firm opinion that since Rico feels the call, then God will equip him with support.
What he needs to do is find brothers of like faith and burden. If he tries to go through a 'pastor' that isn't so minded, he's likely to be asked to run the puppet ministry instead. Nothing wrong with puppet ministries, entire organizations are full of them, if that is your calling.
If he goes though an organization that has a side prison ministry department, then they might be leery to involve a 'layperson' that looks like he might be an ex-con himself. They might want to pray the beard right off him and fix him up with a french noose first. (Word to the wise...beware that thou do not wear french nooses into prison ministry especially.)
(No offense Rico, you have nothing on me there. They are always licking their chops when I visit UPC, until I start worshipping, then they are really troubled and don't quite know what to do with me.)
His best shot is to explore the avenues of entry and pray. God will provide in due time.
I have never been a tie kind of person, and I don't remember ever wearing one to a prison service. I am hoping to find at least one other person with the same burden I have for prisoners. Two heads are always better than one.
I finally got my schedule worked out so that I have every weekend off. I've been thinking of starting on a small scale; maybe just going in to pray with individual prisoners who are interested. From there I was thinking I could expand it to offer short Bible studies on salvation. Eventually we could let it grow into actual church services, assuming the jail has a room we could use for a chapel. I am not planning on shaving my beard, but I have been thinking about trimming some of the wildness out of it.
"For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war: and in multitude of counsellors there is SAFETY."
I understand that you have enacted the above principle when you asked for the counsel of this forum, but still asking a forum and having ministers are two different things.
You see there's a little red X in the top right corner of this screen and if you don't like what's being said to you, all you need to do is click it, but if you are with ministers, elders, mentors, and pastors, you can't do that. You may be able to leave the building, the ministry your attached to, or no longer attended that certain church, but when you stick it out with ministers they are going to hold you accountable. If you come up with some kooky idea (I'm not saying you have kooky ideas, just trying to build my case) and the other Brothers are going to want to inquire to how this kooky idea was formulated. If they can't see your idea under the light of scripture they may not want to authorize your actions.
You see my Brother; it all comes down to being able to have men tell you NO!
That's the real test, and if you can submit to a NO decision and solider through it because the rest of the crew saw that what you were doing was not going to help you or the group, then they may try to have you understand why your decision was wrong.
Human nature wants to be a one man show, and almost all great causes where started by a man having some vision, but that vision will fall flat if that man doesn't have a group that will HELP him make his vision jell.
We can talk all day long how God TOLD us to do X, Y, and Z, but if you don't have a group to help you make all that come to together you are only twisting in the wind. With support and accountability you can move and build mountains, but outlaws and cowboys end up messing up the lives of everyone they come in contact with, and people get really mad at those who preach to them about accountability to Jesus Christ who is unseen when they themselves cannot be accountable to people that they CAN SEE.
Church hoppers and church stoppers don't make good ministers because they were never able to hold down a job. This makes their résumé look real shabby. Now before you think I speaking of a secular job, I want to say that I am not speaking of secular work, but the work of Christ. If we cannot even get stable in a church setting or if every church we set a foot in we can't get OUR act together to work with the ministry. Then we need to look at ourselves first. After listening to a man tell me how he wants to win the world and can't even work with a pastor, ministers, elder, or deacons in getting under a vision with a group of people, I can't really believe that the individual who yearns to be in the ministry will do much of anything.
When we become our own pastor, we have NO pastor, we might make big proclamations that we only follow Jesus and that He tells us what we should do and that we ONLY follow the Bible, but every cult on the planet does that. We need to be around men who are NOT going to support every idea that flows through the portals of our mind.
I want to leave this discussion with this one thought; no man is a Pastor, Evangelist, Prophet, Apostle, and Teacher without people to work with. If a man is called his calling will make room for him. I have walked into churches where the preacher just had his family and who he had been preaching to his family for 12 years without new converts coming in. Well, guess what? The men who say that they are ministers, who have no fruit of babies being born again, can't really say they are ministers. They may be called of God, (please don't get me wrong), but they are doing themselves a great injustice, because they will not get men to work with them to make the vision work.
Now there are those who have as much right to be in a pulpit as Pee Wee Herman, and they eventually make shipwreck of themselves and their families. We should hope and pray that those individuals are few, sadly they are not.
Lord bless you Brother Rico and I hope you consider all I have said to you and I hope you pray futher about this issue. I said it as a friend to a friend, and wish you all the very best.
Brother, I appreciate your advice. I was hoping to hear from a couple of you evangelist types cause much of your time is spent alone. I want you to know that I am not taking any of this lightly. I know better than to play around with things pertaining to ministry of any kind. In fact, I went for a time without even being willing to play my guitar in a church because of where my head was at the time. Believe me when I tell you that I am not in any rush to fail or find myself in trouble with the Lord. I am using this time as a time of preparation for when He opens that door. I know He's going to open it; I just don't know how or when.
While I can agree with some of what you've offered Rico, and the Scriptures stated illustrate perfectly just why the sola pastora system is ultimately inept and unBiblical, I have a question.
What do you advise when men tell you NO and God tells you yes?
While you ponder that, realize that sometimes we walk alone in this world when we follow God. As long as God lives we can never be without a Shepherd, and as a result, if we follow God we have not become our own pastor.
That isn't to say that some don't. Many don't follow God, become their own pastor, start a church, and dub themselves the Man of God and lead many.
Those that follow God will not be forsaken, as time goes on God works it out that the right counsel, with focused vision, and like burdens, find one another. That is the power that moves mountains, not a bunch of cowboys and outlaws that may have teamed up for the sake of personal interest under any name, though they may accomplish something, scratch the mountain, and put up signs. These are those that flee to all quarters when things don't go their way and the mountain rumbles. They want to play little kings of the mountain and call it their own, when all the while it belongs to God.
When those that follow God submit themselves to His plan and work together with one another and with God, the mountain is moved for His glory.
I don't think Rico is planning to go it alone, though he may start the journey heading out lonesome in some folk’s perception. If God has called him to this, he isn't alone in the sight of the right kind of eyes. I'm sure that as God works he will find a companion here and there. It will take courage and resolve, but such are the elements of reward.
It sure beats sitting down when someone thinks they see something kooky and tells you: "NO, play with me in my sandbox, be a part of my idea...it is not kooky, we've always done it this way"
Rico is accountable to God first, no matter how kooky the calling might appear (I'm not saying that you are calling this endeavor kooky, I'm just building my case). If it is from God, there will be plenty of opposition, but beyond that, plenty of help to be accountable one to another, provided that he isn't discouraged to chalk it up to a flight of fancy and told to have a seat.
Brother, you are making a lot of sense in this thread. I worry that, because the apostolic church is so full of how things look, I will be told that there's no way this could be from God (been there, done that, dealt with it for several years). I don't fit the mold that men have created in the apostolic church. Honestly, I think that's part of what makes me effective when preaching to and talking to these men in prisons. They can relate to me because I look just like they do and can talk Jesus to them using their language. They don't see that wall society creates between how "bad" they are perceived to be and how "good" Christians are perceived to be in me. I am someone like them.
The difference is I have been changed by the power of God and I let them know they can be changed by the power of God too. I don't put pressure on them to look any different than they do now. I always told the men to take their preconceived notions of what a Christian is supposed to be and chuck them out the window, in favor of letting God mold them into what He wants them to be. I used to tell the men that the world looks at them and sees murderers, thieves, con men, and liars. But God looks at them and sees evangelists, teachers, preachers, witnesses; vessels fit for Him to use. I preached a message of hope, free from religious chains and mindsets.
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