It is NOT cold out here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Consapostolic1]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Nobody said Ultra Con equals "anti-outreach"....

BTW people here that are NOT Ultra Con can also be said to be holding to the old paths. The problem is many UCs think only what THEY believe are the Old Paths and everyone else is just lost

NOT TRUE

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Consapostolic1

NOT TRUE

Yes it IS true. I have heard them myself. As I said...I said MANY think this way. I did not say they all think this way or you think this way. Maybe "Many" is too much..a lot do. Maybe you want to reduce it to some...but if you don't think any UC thinks that way then you've simply lead too sheltered a life and don't get out much or at least you aren't paying attention. Sorry for the bluntness. My former pastor was ok with wedding bands and video when it was voted in, but hard on everything else and he was labeled maliciously a liberal by other certain UCs and other vicious things said about him and even our church even suggesting we were all lost....because we did not believe like they do. Yet our church practices and teaches standards. Yes it DOES happen. I have seen it happen

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Nobody said BEING UC means being unevangelistic. Go back and actually read the thread this time and what was said by Bro Epley and the replies. It's about what HE said and WHY those that are leaving are leaving...no mention of souls. A good reason to leave might have been "because we feel we can reach more souls", but the stated reason was all about "us" UC's circling the wagons around conservativism...that's a bad foundation to build on when the winning of souls is not mentioned or your focus.

Jesus came to seek and save that which is lost...not "to set up a conservative organization of conservative ministers"

Praxeas,
If you think people on these forums aren't saying that being UC is unevangelistic i'm afraid you need to go reread. People have said "i'm sick of these UC's pastoring 4 people getting to go and vote at GC" Today I read a post saying that revival in UC churches come by people having babies and not soul winning". My comments are not just geared toward this thread but this forum as a whole. I'm not saying you are in that company but I am saying there are many that are. Because of that I do defend the position that some of the most revialist churches in America are conservative. The fact is there are lazy liberals and lazy conservatives, there are revival minded liberals and revival minded conservatives. I just hate reading all the post that accuse conservative as being anti revival.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by UltraCon

Praxeas,
If you think people on these forums aren't saying that being UC is unevangelistic i'm afraid you need to go reread. People have said "i'm sick of these UC's pastoring 4 people getting to go and vote at GC" Today I read a post saying that revival in UC churches come by people having babies and not soul winning". My comments are not just geared toward this thread but this forum as a whole. I'm not saying you are in that company but I am saying there are many that are. Because of that I do defend the position that some of the most revialist churches in America are conservative. The fact is there are lazy liberals and lazy conservatives, there are revival minded liberals and revival minded conservatives. I just hate reading all the post that accuse conservative as being anti revival.

Some UCs ARE like that though. They have a circle the wagon mentality. Their goal is to protect the sheep from the liberal Pentecostals....the enemy becomes other members of their own organization and that becomes their main focus. I have seen it.

My fear is that this will become more acute through the irrational fear that their beloved org was taken from them and that they were betrayed...and then from Epleys post it becomes even more acute. That bothers me. We are disunifying, not unifying. Then we are unifying into smaller factions...over things that don't even have to do with acts 2:38 or Oneness etc etc....

I really wonder if this is not how it went in the first 3 centuries when eventually Rome was able to take control of the churches and eventually force those that believed like we do into historical ineffectiveness.

Scary....history continues to repeat itself. The enemy continues to divide and conquor

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Nobody said BEING UC means being unevangelistic. Go back and actually read the thread this time and what was said by Bro Epley and the replies. It's about what HE said and WHY those that are leaving are leaving...no mention of souls. A good reason to leave might have been "because we feel we can reach more souls", but the stated reason was all about "us" UC's circling the wagons around conservativism...that's a bad foundation to build on when the winning of souls is not mentioned or your focus.

Jesus came to seek and save that which is lost...not "to set up a conservative organization of conservative ministers"

Here are some better examples, i'm pasting these from another thread on AFF that i read today.

From CC1
I don't think many ultra cons "have revival" whether they are in or out of the UPC because they add so many extra biblical requirements to the Gospel not many are willing to suspend the mind God gave them to jump through the hoops.

From tv1a
How many ultra churches can contribute their growth to new converts. Usually ultra churches grow by popping out babies dozens at a time or get people from other churches.

Praxeas, this is the kind of junk that i'm responding to.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Some UCs ARE like that though. They have a circle the wagon mentality. Their goal is to protect the sheep from the liberal Pentecostals....the enemy becomes other members of their own organization and that becomes their main focus. I have seen it.

My fear is that this will become more acute through the irrational fear that their beloved org was taken from them and that they were betrayed...and then from Epleys post it becomes even more acute. That bothers me. We are disunifying, not unifying. Then we are unifying into smaller factions...over things that don't even have to do with acts 2:38 or Oneness etc etc....

I really wonder if this is not how it went in the first 3 centuries when eventually Rome was able to take control of the churches and eventually force those that believed like we do into historical ineffectiveness.

Scary....history continues to repeat itself. The enemy continues to divide and conquor

There is a disunity taking place right now in the org. I hate that but at the same time we have been offered great support from many independent men. I will not forsake personal convictions for the sake of unity. Is there no breaking point with you? What would it take for you to say the UPC has crossed the line and for you to get out? For me it was TV. I know that may seem silly to some but for me it is a big big deal. I hate what is going on right now but i'll be honest and say i'd rather fellowship with men of like faith than to remain apart of a org that now supports something that I am so against.

[Straightline]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

..the circle the wagon mentality

Bringing the same resolution up year after year after year is circling the wagons. Chasing the tail until you catch it is the circular mentality of progress.

Ultracon is right on, Prax. Where do YOU draw the final line of acceptability? It may be that you draw it in a different spot than I, but we all have that "enough-is-enough" line when it comes to organizational tolerance.

My friend Elder Epley is right! Not cold at all! Also, the warmth you might feel "inside" is Rome burning.....


On some things you cannot bend and remain a
Straightline

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by UltraCon

Here are some better examples, i'm pasting these from another thread on AFF that i read today.

From CC1
I don't think many ultra cons "have revival" whether they are in or out of the UPC because they add so many extra biblical requirements to the Gospel not many are willing to suspend the mind God gave them to jump through the hoops.

Right, however let's remember he said he thinks not many. He did not say all. Second he did not say they were anti-evangelising. He just stated they are not having revival because of the many extra added requirements.

You know, I remember reading in a UPC publicated book either the Winds of God or it was United we Stand...and they were talking about Asuza street and the narrator mentioned that at that meeting there was a certain segment of the group that were Holiness and they struggled the most with receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost because of their insistance on works and so many requirements. I don't think CC is saying they are anti soul winning or anti revival or that they all don't have revival. In fact we have to question what He means by "UC"....because many Cons are not much different than an Ultra Con. What separates the two? is it standards or is it an attitude that involves standards and other things?

I always considered my former pastor a very strict pastor....then I found out other pastors in org maliciously attacked him as being a liberal and other not so kind things behind his back and even to his face. He was dead against TV too.

From tv1a
How many ultra churches can contribute their growth to new converts. Usually ultra churches grow by popping out babies dozens at a time or get people from other churches.

I still have to ask what an Ultra Con is in this respect. I always considered my church under my former pastor a very conservative church and yet we had good growth through new converts. Of course we had a hard time keeping them all. Most left over our strong stance on standards and the "own a TV go to hell" rule.

Praxeas, this is the kind of junk that i'm responding to.

Ok, but understand you interjected this in the middle of a discussing we were having here on what bro Epley posted and I had made some comments about the statement lacking a stated goal of winning lost souls, so it looked as though you were referring to what I was saying

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Straightline

Bringing the same resolution up year after year after year is circling the wagons. Chasing the tail until you catch it is the circular mentality of progress.

No a circle the wagon mentality is just as it sounds...you form your last stand against all your enemies out there and shoot at them...it's just us here huddled.

Ultracon is right on, Prax. Where do YOU draw the final line of acceptability? It may be that you draw it in a different spot than I, but we all have that "enough-is-enough" line when it comes to organizational tolerance.

I've stated many many many times where I draw the line. The problem is that nobody wants to talk reason. They want to make wild emotive assertions and not bother to back them up or listen to what the other has said. A person can be for advertisement on TV and yet be against watching anything that promotes sin on TV, on the Internet or whatever....and be full on for standards and everything else...and because of that one little issue, they get branded a liberal and changed with not having any line of acceptabilty. That proves to me that some people aren't even being obejctive. They are like ostriches with their heads in the sand....or the kind that plugs his ears and goes "lalalalalala, can't hear you lalalalalal"

My friend Elder Epley is right! Not cold at all! Also, the warmth you might feel "inside" is Rome burning.....

I never said anyone was cold....see how this goes folks?

On some things you cannot bend and remain a
Straightline

A blind man once was walking a straight line.....several others were walking right behind him with their hands in each others shoulders....that straight line led him right into a ditch and you can imagine what happened to the rest

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by UltraCon

There is a disunity taking place right now in the org. I hate that but at the same time we have been offered great support from many independent men. I will not forsake personal convictions for the sake of unity. Is there no breaking point with you? What would it take for you to say the UPC has crossed the line and for you to get out? For me it was TV. I know that may seem silly to some but for me it is a big big deal. I hate what is going on right now but i'll be honest and say i'd rather fellowship with men of like faith than to remain apart of a org that now supports something that I am so against.

The TV resolution in no way made you do anything. See that is the whole point. It's all about the org....the org is an idol. The resolution did NOT force anyone to approve of TV, to stop preaching against it or to support it. Your personal convictions are yours, not the orgs. It's just an org but it has become a monster of resolutions and politics....

We messed up big time somewhere along the way...the ORG was supposed to be a facilitation for us to spread the Apostolic Oneness message and allow us to work towards that goal. Instead the org because a pet monster being cultivated and groomed and fought over. No wonder the UPC remains so small compared to other groups like the AOG.

Us OPS talk a great talk when it comes to winning souls but we seem more enamored with building organizations after our own likeness!