Water baptism, can you agree with this statement?

Originally Posted by pelathais

hmmm... trying to step around the other discussions that are going on concurrently... thanks mizpeh and tbpew.

And remember, we already agree that baptism is essential, etc. I just repeat that because things like that seem to get lost in these threads.

My statement was that John 3:5 is not a verse that we can use to show that agreed upon essentiality. In the quotes above it seems that you both bring an a priori assumption into the reading of the John 3. As soon as water is mentioned you assume it means baptism. But break down the conversation itself as it develops and put yourself into the shoes of the perplexed Nicodemas for a moment.

Nicodemas begins the dialog by commenting that no one could do the miracles that Jesus had done, "except God be with Him." Instead of responding directly to Nicodemas' assertion - and openly professing His divine identity, Jesus says that you must be "born again" (or "from above). The phrase "born again" in the Greek is ambiguous; it can be understood two ways. Jesus (and especially John, by selecting this conversation as a highlight in his gospel) is presenting a fork in the road for both Nicodemas and the reader. Do we go with the meaning "again" or "above?"

Nicodemas goes with "again." "How can I enter again into my mother's womb...?" Nicodemas seems to show that what Jesus is saying is ridiculous. Nicodemas is fixated upon this world here below. He has, for whatever reasons, seemed to have eliminated the world "above" from his thinking. It's this type of thinking that Jesus wants to change. So he goes on and contrasts the things from "above" with the things from "below."

The phrase "water and Spirit" is one of those contrasts. Being born from the "water" of his mother's womb was needed- just to be sitting there Nicodemas obviously had to have been born of his mother. But Jesus wants him to look beyond the earthly and look up. He must be born from "above," that is by the Spirit.

How is one truly "born from above?" Well, as I said, that's the part we already agree upon, Acts 2:38.

Pel,

You and I may agree that baptism is essential but essential to WHAT? Essential to membership in your local assembly? Essential to become a voting member of your congregation?

You and I may even agree that baptism is essential for salvation but I assure you many of the others in this discussion DO NOT BELIEVE THAT!

For DA, J-ROC, Encryptus, Raven, and I am guessing you too, Baptism is just some extra-salvational weight of obligation that Jesus put on folks that serves no purpose in their lives!