The Reason Some Apostolics Are Concerned: The Results of Erased Lines

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

It will be a really cold day in a very, very hot place before you'll find 'tolerance' in me for absolute false doctrine. That's not called 'intolerance' but 'steadfast in the Apostles doctrine and fellowship'.

If truth doens't matter then why waste our time having Church.

I guess it would depend if the concept of truth is your "golden calf" or if THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE is the focus.

[ILG]

I understand the concern of erased lines, Steadfast, but I have to ask the question: If a person's relationship with Jesus is based on rules to the extent that they are going to sin without the rules, how much of a relationship with Jesus does a person really have? Doesn't the Bible say that his Word would be written on our HEARTS? If the rules are gone, is the heart Word erased?? Seriously.

[Esther]

I for one certainly understand Steadfast concerns here.

Even though I have studied, prayed and came to the conclusion many of our standards are just that standards, not salvation issues. But you have to have a line drawn somewhere.

I still adhere to the standards KNOWING they are standards. One of the reasons I have not changed them is being concerned of the possiblity of going to far. Perhaps I feel that way because it has been taught for so long.???

But I HATE the other extreme equally if not more so, when I hear ignorance preached of it being a sin to wear red and such like. Now that makes me really, really mad.

[StillStanding]

Why does the UPCI or PAW exist?

Weren't they formed to organize and spread the Apostolic doctrine?

I can see where, as an organization, that assimilating with trinnies would not be congruent with their purpose for existance!

[ThePastorsCoach]

I had a man preach for me once - that preached if you wore a wedding ring - you were going to hell. He also told me that GOD told him - if he would talk to my wife, she would take off her wedding ring and never put it back on. I said - help yourself! He did and she didn't! Did GOD lie or did he?
The fact of the matter is - it was all based on a lie.

Is someone going to HELL because they were not baptized with the preacher saying these exact words, "I baptize you in the name of JESUS CHRIST." I have heard that preached - it is a LIE - just as much as three persons in a godhead is a lie. The problem is - some would have the man that personally believes people are going to hell for not being baptized with the exact wording he says -preach for them - even though you might baptize "In the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ" or "In Jesus Name" or "In the Name of the Lord Jesus".

[Joseph Miller]

Originally Posted by Consapostolic1

I was speaking to a lady from the PAW here and she was telling me that she felt alot of the older bishops hold up the PAW by trying to keep non-apostolics from preaching in their conferences and things. I just thought to myself oh my goodness why would you even think it's okay to allow someone preach for you if you know their doctorinal views are unbiblical?

VERY good question.

[ForeverBlessed]

Originally Posted by Thad

well this is my past post before i go on strike(or til Boomm gets over himself!!!!!!! )

Anyhow, I went to the last couple of PAW conventions (2005/2006)
because one of my best friends that i known since my youth was consecrated(?) . they had this HUGE installment with an ELABORATE, ORNATE Cermemony. it was in Chicago. then i went last year because it was close by (Los Angeles).

Anyhow, I don't know for sure if it's because they don't have strict standards like us, but there was SOMETHING MISSING!!! i kept saying to myself " you have got to kidding"!! " is this all"??? seriously, there was just nothing ... no move of the spirit of any kind. it was pomp & Program & ceremony and worshipping this bishop and that leader. They spent $500,000 on fancy clerical Robes but can hardly pay their bills and have to ask Braizer to bail them out all the time??? I'm not getting it!

I'm not trying to be Judgmental. you have to remember they have been in existence for almost 100 years. what will the UPC be in 100 years???
however, I do remember the PAW even 20 years ago and it was so anointed! the churches out here were booming! Even the PAW people i know here in CA. tell me something is wrong. now, i will tell you this, they don't think it's the standard issue- they think it's the fight for power, lots of men clawing their way to the top that has hurt their organization

I agree… it is not standards. Do we really think that a skirt or lack thereof, hair, tv and such petty issues will be the downfall of anyone? How shallow imo.

It is idolatry…. Anything that is put before God. It can be many things… power, riches, greed, and even traditions of men…. anything you allow into your life that supersedes your relationship with God will lead to a spiritual downfall, anointing and power manifested in your life and churches. The trouble is issues of the heart…. Being led astray by power, seeking high seats… greed, money…. Fame and fortune. It is across the board everywhere.

Anytime that the need to be in control to the extent of glorifying men, a manuel over the bible and God… you will see a downfall… I truly believe there will be a shaking. The true church, inside or outside of UPC will march on in Truth. There is a people out there that is searching for more of God. I don’t care what the organization is, God does have people serving him.

Those who choose to hold to traditions to the point of losing sight of what is right, to those who get so occupied with proving their liberty in Christ that they go overboard. Both sides of the spectrum have taken their eyes off the main thing and will not stand either….

Seems everything gets blamed on standards…lack of it or too many… neither is right. The root of the problem... what is missing is a love for the Lord, the word of God and for others.

[Esther]

Originally Posted by ForeverBlessed

I agree… it is not standards. Do we really think that a skirt or lack thereof, hair, tv and such petty issues will be the downfall of anyone? How shallow imo.

It is idolatry…. Anything that is put before God. It can be many things… power, riches, greed, and even traditions of men…. anything you allow into your life that supercedes your relationship with God will lead to a spiritual downfall, anointing and power manifested in your life and churches. The trouble is issues of the heart…. Being led astray by power, seeking high seats… greed, money…. Fame and fortune. It is across the board everywhere.

Anytime that the need to be in control to the extent of glorifying men, a manuel over the bible and God… you will see a downfall… I truly believe there will be a shaking. The true church, inside or outside of UPC will march on in Truth. There is a people out there that is searching for more of God. I don’t care what the organization is, God does have people serving him.

Those who choose to hold to traditions to the point of losing sight of what is right, to those who get so occupied with proving their liberty in Christ that they go overboard. Both sides of the spectrum have taken their eyes off the main thing and will not stand either….

Seems everything gets blamed on standards…lack of it or too many… neither is right. The root of the problem... what is missing is a love for the Lord, the word of God and for others.

Very, very good post!

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

I guess it would depend if the concept of truth is your "golden calf" or if THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE is the focus.

Dan,

True scriptural doctrine is of the utmost importance. Doctrine, the teachings of Christ and the apostles, and obedience to that doctrine saves us. Through doctrine we know who Christ is and we know what the true uncorrupted gospel says. You can't throw away teaching/doctrine nor can you separate it from the giver of the doctrine, Christ.

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. 1 Tim 4:16

Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop

The PAW is not going TRINITY! I do agree with THAD that they have lost much of what they had spiritually because they have gone more into ceremony but it is not because they have ministers that are outside thier rhelm of revelation.

You guys forget the facts that Oneness and A/G fellowshipped and preached for each other for years after the split. YOU CANNOT IGNORE HISTORY!
The DS of Florida called the A/G - "separated brethren" when I first went before the FL board to get license. He said - "You were ordained by "separated brethren". I had NO CLUE what he was talking about. I asked him - Brother Crabtree - what do you mean. He said - "we were all ONE at one time - but we had to separate because of the Revelation of Oneness - but we are still brothers"! HE WAS THE DS of FL!

Just because you love people and allow them to minister in your pulpit does not mean you accept all their doctrine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do any of you know ANYBODY that totally agrees with you on every point of Doctrine?

Please stop making this all so personal. I am not attacking anyone. We can't even discuss something without someone thinking that they are being attacked personally!

AB, the PAW fell just three votes short of basically saying it was acceptable. While they, themselves, may not 'believe' trinity (and, yes, some DO believe the trinity) they basically said they see no issue accepting false doctrine.

As for 'brethren separated' nonsense? There was always a difference in the sons of promise and the sons of Hagar. If you don't like that point a finger at God as He is the one that declared it to be so.

Trinitarians believe a lie. Now that is really simple. Can one be saved not understanding Oneness? I'm persuaded that if they have obeyed the New Birth according to the Bible... perhaps. But NOBODY can be saved promoting a lie and the TRINITY is a lie.

If the truth about Oneness doens't matter then what else doesn't matter?