New Believer's Question ........

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Lost and Found

Not a lot of time tonight so I will answer with this: The OT is a type and shadow of the NT. The physical wars we see fought in the OT are a type of the spiritual wars we fight today. OT was fought in flesh and blood. NT says: "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places" (Eph 6:12). I hope this helps.

I guess God didn't love the heathens in the OT as much as he loves the heathens today, after all, they get a chance to be saved, but the OT ones, they got nothing but mass slaughter. Not only is that not loving, but its certainly not just.

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Sheltiedad

I've asked all these questions before, all that ever comes back is you have to have faith and pray about it... no one seems to have any real answers for any hard questions.

For example, given the scenarios presented above, do the non-Jews in the OT have souls? If so, are they all burning in hell without ever having been given instruction on how to be saved? And if that is the case, how can God be just?

I should have known you beat me too this! LOL

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Felicity

We have a Chinese student living with us and tonight he asked me a question that I'm a little hard pressed to answer so hoping for a little help from some of you who I know are able to give a good answer.

He's reading through the OT and today was reading some scripture where David was praying and asking God for victory in battle and the victory was promised him.

Eric wants to know why if God loves everybody He would allow those outside of the chosen nation to be murdered and killed by His own people? He feels that the wars and battles fought in the OT and approved and in fact directed by God Himself are in sharp contrast with the teaching of the NT.

How would you answer Eric?

As I was out and about not long ago, this thread came to mind.

Some of the posts here (Abi's in particular) have been very good and I hope they were a help to you in trying to explain it all to Eric.

As for me, I can't seem to get away from the Cross...as a matter of fact, a song I haven't heard in years came to my mind, and I can't even remember the words except for this line..."the way of the Cross leads home."

Don't know how it relates except it's what I think about when your post comes to mind.

I'm wondering too if perhaps he should be reading the Book of John...just my thoughts...

[Newman]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Some people will point out how wicked the nations that dwelt in the land of Canaan were. This, we are told, is why God commanded Israel to "drive" them out of Canaan. In Genesis there is a note (Genesis 15:16) that in the days of Abraham the "iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full..." This seems to indicate that the people were given a time (at least 490 years) to repent. A part of God's patience toward the Canaanites resulted in causing the enslavement and suffering of Israel in Egypt. That kind of "turn about" is worth noting.

Later, under David's rule when all of the land was secured and God had given him peace, David went about "numbering" the people. In Israel the people were "numbered" for only two reasons, taxation and war. Since it was David's military commander, Joab who complained it seems that David was planning upon a war of expansion. He was intending to go beyond the territory that God had prescribed to Israel. Just planning such a war resulted in a terrible judgement against Israel.

Later, when Israel and Judah both began acting just like the nations that their forebears had driven out of the land, God drove Israel out of the land using the Assyrians and Babylonians. God apparenty wasn't playing favorites when it came to nations keeping His commandments.

I liked this answer and most of Abigail's answer. I would add that today we can't even begin to fatham what a dog eat dog world tribal warfare used to be!

I saw the movie "Apocalypto" by Mel Gibson about the Mayan Indians in Central/South America. Wow. What an eye opener.

Villages slaughtered; kidnapped, sold into slavery and used as sacrafice for worship IN THE BLINK OF AN EYE.

Is it possible that it was nations that likewise were so savage that God told Israel to destroy them? Was it nations that had already brutally destroyed other tribes and people?

Consider that Israel was told to treat aliens well who were in their midst because they had one time been aliens in Egypt. Consider that they did not attempt to destroy Egypt but rather only sought to leave it behind.

Just a thought about a world we can't fatham at this point in time...

[Bro-Larry]

Originally Posted by Felicity

We have a Chinese student living with us and tonight he asked me a question that I'm a little hard pressed to answer so hoping for a little help from some of you who I know are able to give a good answer.

He's reading through the OT and today was reading some scripture where David was praying and asking God for victory in battle and the victory was promised him.

Eric wants to know why if God loves everybody He would allow those outside of the chosen nation to be murdered and killed by His own people? He feels that the wars and battles fought in the OT and approved and in fact directed by God Himself are in sharp contrast with the teaching of the NT.

How would you answer Eric?

If one nation is coming against another with intent to conquer or destroy, there's absolutely nothing unjust about using deadly force to defend your own nation. That is the scenerio here with David and Israel.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Newman

I liked this answer and most of Abigail's answer. I would add that today we can't even begin to fatham what a dog eat dog world tribal warfare used to be!

I saw the movie "Apocalypto" by Mel Gibson about the Mayan Indians in Central/South America. Wow. What an eye opener.

Villages slaughtered; kidnapped, sold into slavery and used as sacrafice for worship IN THE BLINK OF AN EYE.

Is it possible that it was nations that likewise were so savage that God told Israel to destroy them? Was it nations that had already brutally destroyed other tribes and people?

Consider that Israel was told to treat aliens well who were in their midst because they had one time been aliens in Egypt. Consider that they did not attempt to destroy Egypt but rather only sought to leave it behind.

Just a thought about a world we can't fatham at this point in time...

That's a really interesting point. Life must have been so brutal! And I think it corresponds to the idea that all men were created equal...that is, I think God had no heathens vs. the Good Ones in the beginning. Everyone was free to choose their path, just as they are now. The end result is still the same, even if there may have been more brutality along the way in times past. (Eternal life or eternal damnation) Some of the posters on this thread seem to think that God has set up man to fail, and that he set aside a group of fall guys from day 1. I don't see that as being the case.

Okay, which part of my post DON'T you like? Answer me, Newman, I can't stand it!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Newman

I liked this answer and most of Abigail's answer. I would add that today we can't even begin to fatham what a dog eat dog world tribal warfare used to be!

I saw the movie "Apocalypto" by Mel Gibson about the Mayan Indians in Central/South America. Wow. What an eye opener.

Villages slaughtered; kidnapped, sold into slavery and used as sacrafice for worship IN THE BLINK OF AN EYE.

Is it possible that it was nations that likewise were so savage that God told Israel to destroy them? Was it nations that had already brutally destroyed other tribes and people?

Consider that Israel was told to treat aliens well who were in their midst because they had one time been aliens in Egypt. Consider that they did not attempt to destroy Egypt but rather only sought to leave it behind.

Just a thought about a world we can't fatham at this point in time...

Mel's movie was a great acheivement- in particular the work of the actors. The historical gaffes were egregious- the Mayans were generally less aggressive than portrayed and the Spanish didn't suddenly appear on the Mayan shores at the time of the Mayan collapse- 1100 -1200 A.D.

The whole thing would have worked better with the Aztecs, that's an accurate portrayal, despite what some of their 20th century apologists would say. And the capture of an enemy for either "sport" (torture) or human sacrifice was a common theme in many cultures that practiced that ritual. But the withered corn crops and plague were a part of the Mayan collapse and not the Aztec.

Still, if you sort out the intentional "liberties" the producers and writers took, it is an incredible accounting of Meso-America before the arrival of the Europeans. Other themes that were similar was the conquest of the rather peaceful Arawak by the canniblistic Caribs. The Europeans were actually putting an end to genocide when small pox inadvertantly finished what the Caribs had started.

The movie 1492: Conquest of Paradise got it so wrong in the way that the producers sought to blame everything on the Europeans. That is one film that actually stands out as racist propaganda.

[mizpeh]

In addition to Pelathais' first post, God uses what he made to punish sinful mankind on the earth. He used a flood of water, fire and brimstone and he uses these:

Eze 14:21 For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?

He has every right to do as He sees fit since He is the righteous judge of the whole earth. People wonder why there is so much evil in the world and why it seems nothing is done about it. God has promised us we will see the reward of the wicked come upon them and the righteous prosper. Seeing these things come to pass takes patient waiting on the Lord and observation.

I guess I'm saying some wars (the sword) are the sword of the Lord taking revenge upon the sin of a people. A lot of this can be taken from reading about Assyria and Babylon in the OT prophets, the destruction they caused upon sinful nations, including Judah and Israel, which God states is a result of His direction and then God's retribution on Assyria and Babylon for their pride.

Ultimately in this life and in the next we will reap what we sow.

[Newman]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I think the "relationship" aspect has more potential than anything else. God in the OT was nothing if not a God of contradictions. Even amidst His own strict rules and laws, He would step beyond them if a person or group of people turned to Him.

Maybe its a controversial statement, but aren't Jews more of a religious persuasion and culture than race? That is, anyone who converts to Judaism, is essentially a Jew. Or am I wrong on that point?

Regardless, in the OT, God showed mercy to people outside of the Jews, IF they turned to Him. E.g., Ninevah, Ruth, Rahab, etc. (Were the Ninevans Jews or Heathens? Were they heathens only because they didn't worship God?)

And, if everyone came from Adam, then essentially everyone started out with the same free will to choose God, and by the choices they made or their ancestors made, they ended up in a different place. I don't see in scripture where God set aside a little group from the very beginning, and said, "I'm only going to love you, everyone else I will hate." No, people set themselves apart, like Cain and Esau.

MissBrattifield- I thought your point about God showing mercy to non-Jews that turned to Him to be right on the money and something I had never considered before.

However, I am not as comfortable with the last paragraph although I can't say its technically wrong in what it actually said.

Yet, it seems to me that God did indeed set Israel apart from the beginning; if not loving them more; at the very least intending to use them to point the way to Christ.

And so God blessed Abraham's seed that all the nations of the earth would be blessed in him (Genesis 18:18) and told the Israelites that if they kept His commandments, "ye shall be a peculiar people ABOVE all people..." (Ex19:5).

So overall; I think that we must find that Israel at the very least; had a headstart.

[Newman]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Mel's movie was a great acheivement- in particular the work of the actors. The historical gaffes were egregious- the Mayans were generally less aggressive than portrayed and the Spanish didn't suddenly appear on the Mayan shores at the time of the Mayan collapse- 1100 -1200 A.D.

The whole thing would have worked better with the Aztecs, that's an accurate portrayal, despite what some of their 20th century apologists would say. And the capture of an enemy for either "sport" (torture) or human sacrifice was a common theme in many cultures that practiced that ritual. But the withered corn crops and plague were a part of the Mayan collapse and not the Aztec.

Still, if you sort out the intentional "liberties" the producers and writers took, it is an incredible accounting of Meso-America before the arrival of the Europeans. Other themes that were similar was the conquest of the rather peaceful Arawak by the canniblistic Caribs. The Europeans were actually putting an end to genocide when small pox inadvertantly finished what the Caribs had started.

The movie 1492: Conquest of Paradise got it so wrong in the way that the producers sought to blame everything on the Europeans. That is one film that actually stands out as racist propaganda.

pelathais- Wow! Do you teach history? All I know is that I was stunned by the movie and the brutality of tribal warfare and survival from long ago. It helped me see the OT in a new light.