Evolution and the Bible. Confirm or contradict?

[RandyWayne]

From what I have read, their is even effort underway via large colliders to form micro-black holes. It seems just incredible that this is possible but very large numbers (as well as very small) are common place in physics.

[pelathais]

[quote=Carpenter;302810]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The problem is that people cannot grasp that God is responsible for ALL creation. NO new matter can be created by man, the mass of the universe will and forever will be the same.

HE had to speak in order for things to BE, he did not just THINK them and they appeared. I believe everything that science can prove or produce is/was done so because of the almighty hand of God.

I agree- but with an important caveat that you may feel a need to argue over. Matter and energy are the same thing - just different states. As you accelerate matter up to the speed of light, it becomes more like energy. Thus, "new matter" may be "created," (whether by man or in natural processes) but it is "created" from the store of "stuff" that existed in the original singularity.

[RandyWayne]

......and did you know that a mechanical watch, when wound, actually weighs slightly more then one that is not!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Carpenter

Someone may have mentioned this, but I believe that God could have allowed or designed the evolutionary process concerning the animal and plant kingdoms. I also believe there has been some evolutionary change in humans in terms of adaptation, however there is no way the human species developed from a more simple and less complex set of DNA...no way.

That involves an important discussion on what it means to be "human." Are we each just the sum total of whatever our DNA code reads? I don't think so. We are created in God's "image." I don't pretend to have a complete (perhaps not even a very good) explanation of what all that means, but it does set us apart from the other "complex collections of dust" on the planet.

Also, "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." This "breath of life" seems to be something we share with animals (Genesis 6:17) yet coupled with our "humaness" it is something different (Psalm 42:5 and Psalm 43:5).

I can see the DNA code as developing through generations of "nonhumans" until God selected a time and place to create a full human being from the life that was already in blossom.

The human genome, while similar to even fruit flies, is extremely unique when it is closely examined and compared to other genetic codes. One of the most important things that makes it so unique is the way it has passed through time. Observing the current rate of mutation in many genes we can extrapolate that we all share a common mother back around 100,000 years ago. The mitochondria that is involved is inherited from your mother and that's why we can "see" an Eve but not an Adam in this technique. And there are some very severe bottlenecks all along the way. Basically, our ancestors were never as numerous as they are now (obviously) but at times, and for generations of time, they seem to have existed in only a single small family clan like unit.

You can go and select DNA samples from a single closley related troop of chimps in Africa and look for the differences and then plot those differences on a graph. Then travel the globe and select DNA from the most widely separated humans you can find. The humans will always come out more closely related than the chimps- despite the fact that the chimps may be first cousins or even siblings and the humans in our test haven't shared a common ancestor for who knows how many generations.

This screams to us the fact that human DNA has traveled a very different path through time than the DNA of our "closest animal relatives." And yet even with that, there is more to being a human being than just your DNA. We are related to the rest of the living organisms on this planet - and yet somehow we stand apart from all others in very significant ways.

I put that in rather non-theistic wording on purpose. My point is that we can begin a discussion on God and the things of God from an entirely scientific viewpoint - without resorting to the "Scientific Creationism" strategy of obsfucation. Look for "meaningfulness" in life and natural history. "Design" arguments can sometimes be a serious detour. Instead approach it as if you were prepared to jump into the inky blackness of nihilism if that were where the truth lay. But before you jump, stop and turn around and ask yourself, does any of this mean anything?

That's where I stood once. Filled with doubt I was forced by the evidence to confess that, yes there does appear to be some meaning here. At that point I decided to give God the "benefit of the doubt." I had so much doubt anyway, so why not put some of that doubt in His column as well? It was then that the most unexpected voices spoke to me and showed me the meaning all over again; only this time at a level so rich and deep that I was filled with awe.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by pelathais

That involves an important discussion on what it means to be "human." Are we each just the sum total of whatever our DNA code reads? I don't think so. We are created in God's "image." I don't pretend to have a complete (perhaps not even a very good) explanation of what all that means, but it does set us apart from the other "complex collections of dust" on the planet.

Also, "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." This "breath of life" seems to be something we share with animals (Genesis 6:17) yet coupled with our "humaness" it is something different (Psalm 42:5 and Psalm 43:5).

I can see the DNA code as developing through generations of "nonhumans" until God selected a time and place to create a full human being from the life that was already in blossom.

The human genome, while similar to even fruit flies, is extremely unique when it is closely examined and compared to other genetic codes. One of the most important things that makes it so unique is the way it has passed through time. Observing the current rate of mutation in many genes we can extrapolate that we all share a common mother back around 100,000 years ago. The mitochondria that is involved is inherited from your mother and that's why we can "see" an Eve but not an Adam in this technique. And there are some very severe bottlenecks all along the way. Basically, our ancestors were never as numerous as they are now (obviously) but at times, and for generations of time, they seem to have existed in only a single small family clan like unit.

You can go and select DNA samples from a single closley related troop of chimps in Africa and look for the differences and then plot those differences on a graph. Then travel the globe and select DNA from the most widely separated humans you can find. The humans will always come out more closely related than the chimps- despite the fact that the chimps may be first cousins or even siblings and the humans in our test haven't shared a common ancestor for who knows how many generations.

This screams to us the fact that human DNA has traveled a very different path through time than the DNA of our "closest animal relatives." And yet even with that, there is more to being a human being than just your DNA. We are related to the rest of the living organisms on this planet - and yet somehow we stand apart from all others in very significant ways.

I put that in rather non-theistic wording on purpose. My point is that we can begin a discussion on God and the things of God from an entirely scientific viewpoint - without resorting to the "Scientific Creationism" strategy of obsfucation. Look for "meaningfulness" in life and natural history. "Design" arguments can sometimes be a serious detour. Instead approach it as if you were prepared to jump into the inky blackness of nihilism if that were where the truth lay. But before you jump, stop and turn around and ask yourself, does any of this mean anything?

That's where I stood once. Filled with doubt I was forced by the evidence to confess that, yes there does appear to be some meaning here. At that point I decided to give God the "benefit of the doubt." I had so much doubt anyway, so why not put some of that doubt in His column as well? It was then that the most unexpected voices spoke to me and showed me the meaning all over again; only this time at a level so rich and deep that I was filled with awe.

Scripture in more than one place refers to God as being: "...past finding out..." He is truly greater than all our tradition, all our understanding today and tomorrow. A totally new twist to the "...ever learning, never able to come to the knowledge of the truth..." Just when we think we have Him figured out, truth expands....fear is such a hindrance to growth and understanding. This thread is tantalizing!!!

[Raven]

Originally Posted by pelathais

That involves an important discussion on what it means to be "human." Are we each just the sum total of whatever our DNA code reads? I don't think so. We are created in God's "image." I don't pretend to have a complete (perhaps not even a very good) explanation of what all that means, but it does set us apart from the other "complex collections of dust" on the planet.

Also, "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." This "breath of life" seems to be something we share with animals (Genesis 6:17) yet coupled with our "humaness" it is something different (Psalm 42:5 and Psalm 43:5).

I can see the DNA code as developing through generations of "nonhumans" until God selected a time and place to create a full human being from the life that was already in blossom.

The human genome, while similar to even fruit flies, is extremely unique when it is closely examined and compared to other genetic codes. One of the most important things that makes it so unique is the way it has passed through time. Observing the current rate of mutation in many genes we can extrapolate that we all share a common mother back around 100,000 years ago. The mitochondria that is involved is inherited from your mother and that's why we can "see" an Eve but not an Adam in this technique. And there are some very severe bottlenecks all along the way. Basically, our ancestors were never as numerous as they are now (obviously) but at times, and for generations of time, they seem to have existed in only a single small family clan like unit.

You can go and select DNA samples from a single closley related troop of chimps in Africa and look for the differences and then plot those differences on a graph. Then travel the globe and select DNA from the most widely separated humans you can find. The humans will always come out more closely related than the chimps- despite the fact that the chimps may be first cousins or even siblings and the humans in our test haven't shared a common ancestor for who knows how many generations.

This screams to us the fact that human DNA has traveled a very different path through time than the DNA of our "closest animal relatives." And yet even with that, there is more to being a human being than just your DNA. We are related to the rest of the living organisms on this planet - and yet somehow we stand apart from all others in very significant ways.

I put that in rather non-theistic wording on purpose. My point is that we can begin a discussion on God and the things of God from an entirely scientific viewpoint - without resorting to the "Scientific Creationism" strategy of obsfucation. Look for "meaningfulness" in life and natural history. "Design" arguments can sometimes be a serious detour. Instead approach it as if you were prepared to jump into the inky blackness of nihilism if that were where the truth lay. But before you jump, stop and turn around and ask yourself, does any of this mean anything?

That's where I stood once. Filled with doubt I was forced by the evidence to confess that, yes there does appear to be some meaning here. At that point I decided to give God the "benefit of the doubt." I had so much doubt anyway, so why not put some of that doubt in His column as well? It was then that the most unexpected voices spoke to me and showed me the meaning all over again; only this time at a level so rich and deep that I was filled with awe.

Pelathais
Treading where even angels fear to tread but I too venture here time and again. Our Father is awesome!!! You make my rusty old brain work overtime. Good post!
Raven

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Raven

Pelathais
Treading where even angels fear to tread but I too venture here time and again. Our Father is awesome!!! You make my rusty old brain work overtime. Good post!
Raven

That's a good way to put it, friend. But doesn't scripture tell us that He has: "...great and wonderful things that we know nothing about"?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Here's where it gets kind of confusing. The Brane Theory is derived from String Theory which in the past wasn't part of the "Standard Model" but has been gaining increasing acceptance.

The "Standard Model" for many years simply could not get past Planck Time after "The Big Bang." There was no way to "see" or even theorize about conditions at Time = 0 or "In the beginning..." as some people liked to put it. Brane Theory offers tools for working with the physical forces of the universe at and possibly before Time = 0.

Being a self described "Standard Model kind of a guy" I haven't really gotten caught up on some of the stuff thats' there. As I understand it, Brane Theory, in going into the time before Planck Time, doesn't conflict with "The Big Bang Theory" but offers some more ways to elucidate that theory and to find the "Holy Grail;" the Grand Unified Theory.
Einstein married space and time together with electromagnetism in his famous equation. But getting gravity and I forget which atomic force into the whole scheme still alludes us. Brane (as in a part of a membrane) Theory may provide some help.

dunno. been up for 2 days straight... room is spinning... it will all make sense when I fall asleep and I'll work it all out again- I've done it before, only to forget everything when I wake up... My wife says I'm a genius when I sleep. I think she means, when I shut up.

It is interesting that Fox News online has a story today about some surfer that thinks that "its a long shot" but that he may have found the Grand Unified Theory. Have you read the story?? I'll try to cut and paste it below:

High Energy Physics - Theory
Title: An Exceptionally Simple Theory of Everything
Authors: A. Garrett Lisi
(Submitted on 6 Nov 2007)
Abstract: All fields of the standard model and gravity are unified as an E8 principal bundle connection. A non-compact real form of the E8 Lie algebra has G2 and F4 subalgebras which break down to strong su(3), electroweak su(2) x u(1), gravitational so(3,1), the frame-Higgs, and three generations of fermions related by triality. The interactions and dynamics of these 1-form and Grassmann valued parts of an E8 superconnection are described by the curvature and action over a four dimensional base manifold.
Comments: 31 pages, 7 figures
Subjects: High Energy Physics - Theory (hep-th); General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology (gr-qc)
Cite as: arXiv:0711.0770v1 [hep-th]

Submission history
From: Garrett Lisi [view email]
[v1] Tue, 6 Nov 2007 14:25:05 GMT (329kb,D)

Which authors of this paper are endorsers?
Link back to: arXiv, form interface, contact.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

That's where I stood once. Filled with doubt I was forced by the evidence to confess that, yes there does appear to be some meaning here. At that point I decided to give God the "benefit of the doubt." I had so much doubt anyway, so why not put some of that doubt in His column as well? It was then that the most unexpected voices spoke to me and showed me the meaning all over again; only this time at a level so rich and deep that I was filled with awe.

Why'd you stop? I'd like to hear the rest of the story.

[RevDWW]

1 Corinthians 13:12 - 13 (KJV) 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

One thing I look forward to is the day when all the answers will be available.

We will know even as we are known. Do you realize what that entails?
He knows the number of hairs on our head. He see when the sparrow falls. ...The Psalmist David had it going on in this writing:

Psalms 139:1 - 24 (KJV)
1 O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.

2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.

3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.

4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.

5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb.

14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.

20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.

21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:

24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

The tears are wailing up in my eyes when I read His knowledge and love for me.

I don't have all the answers but while I'm in this "here and now" I will be sustained by faith, hope, and charity!