Partly, it infers that God does not impart the gifts with the Holy Spirit. I understand wisdom comes with time, experience, learning, etc. But, biblically, wisdom is a gift of the Holy Spirit. (previous post)
Correct. Look at it like this: I could give you a CNC milling machine, you would have it, it would be yours. But it would take some time and study for you to operate the gift I gave you. Since I used a tool as analogy, and you used Bezaleel in another post. Bezaleel was already a seriously talented crafter, the wisdom God imparted to him was the ability to do the work according to the fashion God directed. I have seen dozens of models of the ark of the covanent....all built from the description of scripture, and all different. None of these modelers had what God gave Bezaleel. I have put some time and effort over the years in pondering Bezaleel. He is definately one of the heaviest dudes in scripture.
Same with us tho, we need to Holy Ghost to be complete, it takes both Word and Spirit to make a life the Jesus wants built[/quote]
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As you read the previous passages of text, we see God does impart wisdom supernaturally. If men claim to be filled with he Holy Ghost, claim to have all truth, claim to have superior understanding to salvation, why then are they so ignorant?
How are they ignorant? Is their ignorance judged by scripture? By suposition? What defines ignorance? According to some folks I am absolutely ignorant because I take Peter's preaching in Acts 2:38 at absolute face value and don't try and interpret anything into it, and figure when he echoed that to Cornelius that he knew what he was doing. Hey, Maybe Peter was ignorant.
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Jesus was 12 years old and confounded the teachers of the temple; supernatural wisdom.
Jesus was also the messiah, he was wisdom given life, breath and human form. And besides God can work his will any way, anyhow and any when with whatever he chooses to work that will with.
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I really am trying to understand why Apostolics who claim to have the fullness of God, do not have more wisdom.
So many pastors make so many mistakes and hurt the flock, situations that could have been handled with more wisdom, have destroyed people.
Not everyone who gets the Holy Ghost follows it necessarily. Not every preacher in the Apostolic movement is necessarily called of God to be such.
Some folks choose to go to Bible College just like other choose to study engineering. And they go on to be preachers just because grandpa was and daddy was and yadda yadda.
As a result you get a lot of novices doing stuff they shouldn't, and causing havoc where if they had just became an engineer they would have been good at it.
This could go on and on. The system itself where Preachers "try out" for a church like it was a Job interview where everyone but the pastor is the "HR" dept.
PArt of "wisdom" on the part of someone is knowing when you are called to preach and when you just want to.
Seen a few people end up shipwrecked because they didn't follow the wisdom from above because it didn't match their want to. And when the ship gets wrecked while someone is pretending to be captain, there are alway the passengers who get drowned or crushed in the process.
Believe me. Wisdom is something the Apostolic movement needs a whole lot more. God's giving it, but like the Holy Ghost, we have to recieve it.
By the same token, the saints who have recieved the Holy Ghost need to be able to recieve the fact that just because a preacher dropped the football that doesn't mean God did. Just because the man behind the pulpit threw himself off a cliff, doesn't mean the saints have to go find the opposite clif and throw themselves off. God is still powerful, apostolic doctrine is still true. Men may fail. God does not.
The tragedy is that all four of the last statements I made have become cliches.
How are they ignorant? Is their ignorance judged by scripture? By suposition? What defines ignorance?
Ignorance is simply defined as being uneducated in a particular area of study. I am not inferring that you or any one else is ignorant because you believe in a literal interpretation of particular texts. However, Paul did not want his churches to remain ignorant, so he wrote detailed instructions.
Many refuse to acknowledge biblical and historical truths even when faced with overwhelming evidence.
The early disciples were called ignorant and unlearned, yet the testimony they held... "they had been with Jesus." This testimony overcame their ignorance.
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Jesus was also the messiah, he was wisdom given life, breath and human form. And besides God can work his will any way, anyhow and any when with whatever he chooses to work that will with.
My point here is that Jesus was supernaturally empowered with wisdom as were many others throughout the scriptures. God does give supernatural wisdom. Instantaneous wisdom for a specific situation. This is the word of wisdom. (gift of the Spirit)
Jesus told the disciples as he sent them out to preach, not to even take a script, the H.G. would speak through them. Again, divine wisdom. The early Apostles had been given it also.
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Not everyone who gets the Holy Ghost follows it necessarily. Not every preacher in the Apostolic movement is necessarily called of God to be such.
I agree wholeheartedly.
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As a result you get a lot of novices doing stuff they shouldn't, and causing havoc where if they had just became an engineer they would have been good at it.
This could go on and on. The system itself where Preachers "try out" for a church like it was a Job interview where everyone but the pastor is the "HR" dept.
PArt of "wisdom" on the part of someone is knowing when you are called to preach and when you just want to.
I Agree, however I am dumbfounded as to over 50 years of UPC influence, why aren't the bible schools better equipped to teach proper etiquette and wisdom in real life situations. How to handle crisis, character building, etc.
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Seen a few people end up shipwrecked because they didn't follow the wisdom from above because it didn't match their want to. And when the ship gets wrecked while someone is pretending to be captain, there are alway the passengers who get drowned or crushed in the process.
Believe me. Wisdom is something the Apostolic movement needs a whole lot more. God's giving it, but like the Holy Ghost, we have to recieve it.
A surrendered heart, mind and emotion will go a long way in remedying this. I do believe God does impart supernatural knowledge and wisdom for specific situations, yet many refuse to submit to His nature.
I just know the fields are littered with dead, mutilated and wounded souls who will never reenter the doors of the church because of how situations were handled.
Partly, it infers that God does not impart the gifts with the Holy Spirit. I understand wisdom comes with time, experience, learning, etc. But, biblically, wisdom is a gift of the Holy Spirit. (previous post)
As you read the previous passages of text, we see God does impart wisdom supernaturally. If men claim to be filled with he Holy Ghost, claim to have all truth, claim to have superior understanding to salvation, why then are they so ignorant?
Jesus was 12 years old and confounded the teachers of the temple; supernatural wisdom.
I really am trying to understand why Apostolics who claim to have the fullness of God, do not have more wisdom.
So many pastors make so many mistakes and hurt the flock, situations that could have been handled with more wisdom, have destroyed people.
I didn't have to read through the whole thread to figure out where this was going; I knew when I saw the title.
But it makes responding more convenient when it finally gets spelled out in plain language.
What we have here, gentle reader, is yet another blanket accusation and broadbrush criticism of the Church, pastors, and Apostolic people in general. How quaint and how original.
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If men claim to be filled with he Holy Ghost, claim to have all truth, claim to have superior understanding to salvation, why then are they so ignorant?
Anybody can claim anything. In this profound, probing and insightful question, you have postured yourself as the guy qualified to judge these imaginary, rhetorical "ignorant" men. Who are they? How do we know they are ignorant? What makes your testimony trustworthy?
Of course, there aren't any answers here. Just another salvo from the corkgun brigade, calibrated to sow a little more disdain for God's people.
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I really am trying to understand why Apostolics who claim to have the fullness of God, do not have more wisdom.
So many pastors make so many mistakes and hurt the flock, situations that could have been handled with more wisdom, have destroyed people
The New Birth is the entrance to the Kingdom. It is the starter's gun, not the finish line. It is a birth, not a diploma. It is the beginning of spiritual life, not a miraculous impartation of wisdom and spiritual maturity. Those things take time and willingness to learn and grow.
Certainly there are pastors who make terrible mistakes and hurt people. There are men filling pulpits who are probably no more called to preach than Hillary Clinton.
Human nature is what it is. Flesh is what it is.
But you are barking up the wrong tree when you try to denigrate the Truth of the Apostles doctrine by pointing out that there are people who know it who aren't everything they ought to be. You are bringing your accusation from a false premise.
If salvation instantly conferred perfection, there would be no need for the Epistles. Thus your little attempt to take a shot at Apostolics and their doctrine by pointing out a lack of wisdom in some of them is all smoke.
Nice try, though, and hey...be encouraged.
There are some folks who are always looking for another reason to justify their backsliding who will nod their heads, buy into your little deal here, and think you are one more smart cookie, sticking it to "the man" once again.
The Bible is a sure enough example of grace and mercy seeing how many of the folks in it made mistakes...had problems...and faced trials..... Maybe we could take a lesson from it and offer to others the same Grace & Mercy that is extended to us....imo....
The Bible is a sure enough example of grace and mercy seeing how many of the folks in it made mistakes...had problems...and faced trials..... Maybe we could take a lesson from it and offer to others the same Grace & Mercy that is extended to us....imo....
Yes, however nobody want to take responsibility. This is problematic. How are we as a movement ever going to gain wisdom when we won't acknowledge we need it?
Yes, however nobody want to take responsibility. This is problematic. How are we as a movement ever going to gain wisdom when we won't acknowledge we need it?
"Movements" are neither wise nor unwise; that is the province of individuals.
James said, "If any man lack wisdom, let him ask of God..."
Many years ago, an elder told me that I should pray every day for wisdom, understanding, and knowledge. I took his advice, and am still praying that prayer and ackowledging daily that need.
You can't charge a movement for the lack of wisdom displayed by individuals.
God doesn't judge movements;He judges men.
Movements don't pray and study;en pray and study.
Movements can't and don't acknowledge anything; men can and should.
I didn't have to read through the whole thread to figure out where this was going; I knew when I saw the title.
Here we go again...more assumptions! Jumping the gun. You UC's are famous for this.
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What we have here, gentle reader, is yet another blanket accusation and broadbrush criticism of the Church, pastors, and Apostolic people in general. How quaint and how original.
No what we have here is an ignorant response that seeks to place blame and refuses to take responsibility. Coon, the foundation for generational Apostolicdom is our educational institutions. Why shouldn't we question what is being produced?[/QUOTE[
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Anybody can claim anything. In this profound, probing and insightful question, you have postured yourself as the guy qualified to judge these imaginary, rhetorical "ignorant" men. Who are they? How do we know they are ignorant? What makes your testimony trustworthy?
A typical response from an insecure UC. Anytime anyone asks sincere honest questions, you guys shift the blame, act like it isn't happening, ignore it and attack the one asking the questions. Why can't you just admit you have areas of ignorance too? I do, you do, we all do. Ignorance is simply uneducated in a particular area of study.
i am a pastor, preacher, teacher, etc. When it comes to nuclear fusion, I am ignorant. However, i am not a nuclear scientist, I am a pastor and as such, I should not be ignorant in any scope of study relating to my field. I should learn, grow, study to show myself approved, until I die and write what I have learned for the future generations.[/QUOTE]
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Of course, there aren't any answers here. Just another salvo from the corkgun brigade, calibrated to sow a little more disdain for God's people.
Again, shift the blame, get defensive and refuse to answer honestly.
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The New Birth is the entrance to the Kingdom. It is the starter's gun, not the finish line. It is a birth, not a diploma. It is the beginning of spiritual life, not a miraculous impartation of wisdom and spiritual maturity. Those things take time and willingness to learn and grow.
Well, I agree in part, however are you denying the supernatural impartation of the gifts of the Spirit? Is the word of wisdom a gift of the H.G. Are you saying it takes years for this gift to develop?
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Certainly there are pastors who make terrible mistakes and hurt people. There are men filling pulpits who are probably no more called to preach than Hillary Clinton.
Human nature is what it is. Flesh is what it is.
HALLELUJAH!!!
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But you are barking up the wrong tree when you try to denigrate the Truth of the Apostles doctrine by pointing out that there are people who know it who aren't everything they ought to be. You are bringing your accusation from a false premise.
If salvation instantly conferred perfection, there would be no need for the Epistles. Thus your little attempt to take a shot at Apostolics and their doctrine by pointing out a lack of wisdom in some of them is all smoke.
No one is saying salvation instantly brings perfection. I am asking a legitimate question that deserves a legitimate response from you. I am simply stating that Apostolics claim to have superior revelations. If that is true, then why don't we have greater wisdom.
Most UC's believe everyone else who doesn't follow Acts 2:38 is hell bound. If that is the case, then why don't you have greater wisdom to help everyone else get out of hell?
Why are these men arguing over TV and its merit as a vehicle to carry the gospel? They should be parading their wisdom to the lost and preaching on it!
You cannot get any more ignorant than to argue TV vs. Internet the way they have defended their position. TV for entertainment, Internet for education? C'mon, this supercedes ignorance.
And then get mad and leave because they didn't get their way? Childish, ignorant behavior.
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There are some folks who are always looking for another reason to justify their backsliding who will nod their heads, buy into your little deal here, and think you are one more smart cookie, sticking it to "the man" once again.
Now, I know why I started this thread, you are the perfect example, the poster child of its content.
"Movements" are neither wise nor unwise; that is the province of individuals.
James said, "If any man lack wisdom, let him ask of God..."
Many years ago, an elder told me that I should pray every day for wisdom, understanding, and knowledge. I took his advice, and am still praying that prayer and ackowledging daily that need.
You can't charge a movement for the lack of wisdom displayed by individuals.
God doesn't judge movements;He judges men.
Movements don't pray and study;en pray and study.
Movements can't and don't acknowledge anything; men can and should.
Put the broadbrush down.
I agree its a little broad; so you are saying as an organization we shouldn't demand a higher standard for our graduates? Headquarters shouldn't train, develop and teach the pastors?
The Southern Baptist movement has strict guidelines. Their schools are accountable. Churning out professional pastors. Their not perfect, but look at what they have accomplished?
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