Doctrinal Question - Someone Please Take a Shot at This.

[Neck]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

I was thinking recently about the Catholic doctrine of confession (to a priest), which we of course know is an unscriptural practice.

However, the Catholic church feels they have biblical justification for it. The scripture they use is (John 20:22-23):

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Therefore according to this argument, Roman Catholic priests, based on the authority handed down from the apostles, have the power to remit or retain sins.

Your thoughts please... How would you respond to someone who is Catholic, and defends the practice using that particular scripture?

I have always thought of this as a forgiveness passage...

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

Hmmm interesting...I wondered when I saw that scripture if "we" also lean on that scripture for our stance on Sins ONLY being remitted when a "man" plunges one beneath the water and calls on the name of the Lord.

Do we make ourselves an instrument of remitting someones sins. No ones sins can remitted without a "priest/preacher" doing the work for them.
Just a side thought TRF....sorry, it's not an answer to your question.

Apples and oranges sir. Apples and oranges. But I wont even bother explaining because 1/ it may not really make a difference anyway , and 2/ I'd like to stay on topic if possible.

Originally Posted by Neckstadt

I have always thought of this as a forgiveness passage...

I hear you. But I think a Catholic could plausibly state that it's more than a forgiveness passage, since Jesus already said we should forgive one another (up to 70x 7).

Appreciate the input though.

[Neck]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

I hear you. But I think a Catholic could plausibly state that it's more than a forgiveness passage, since Jesus already said we should forgive one antother (up to 70x 7).

Appreciate the input though.

I understand the 70 x 7.

But that statement goes to human nature.

The fact is humans have a hard time with forgiveness...

[mizpeh]

Since sins are remitted at water baptism, if you refuse to baptise someone then they remain in their sins and if you baptism someone their sins are remitted.
After initial baptism, we confess our sins to God directly 1John1:7

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

I was thinking recently about the Catholic doctrine of confession (to a priest), which we of course know is an unscriptural practice.

However, the Catholic church feels they have biblical justification for it. The scripture they use is (John 20:22-23):

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Therefore according to this argument, Roman Catholic priests, based on the authority handed down from the apostles, have the power to remit or retain sins.

Your thoughts please... How would you respond to someone who is Catholic, and defends the practice using that particular scripture?

Let..I say Let the Catholic Priest show us where in Acts this was done...

[TK Burk]

The Catholic Encyclopedia defines “Absolution” as: that act of the priest whereby, in the Sacrament of Penance, HE FREES MAN FROM SIN. It presupposes on the part of the penitent, contrition, confession, and promise at least of satisfaction; on the part of the minister, valid reception of the Order of Priesthood and jurisdiction, GRANTED BY COMPETENT AUTHORITY, OVER THE PERSON RECEIVING THE SACRAMENT. That there is in the CHURCH POWER TO ABSOLVE SINS committed after baptism the Council of Trent thus declares: "But the Lord then principally instituted the Sacrament of Penance, when, being raised from the dead, He breathed upon His disciples saying, 'Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them, and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.' By which action so signal, and words so clear the consent of all the Fathers has ever understood that THE POWER OF FORGIVING AND RETAINING SINS WAS COMMUNICATED TO THE APOSTLES, AND TO THEIR LAWFUL SUCCESSORS for the reconciling of the faithful who have fallen after baptism" (Sess. XIV, i). (UPPERCASES added for emphasis)

Where does such practice lead? Look at what the Universal Life Church does with such forgiveness power:

“The Universal Life Church through its Monastery grants full Absolution from all sin from preconception to the present date.

In addition, the Universal Life Church through its Monastery grants Plenary Indulgence which is forgiveness of the punishments for sin in this life.

The Grant of Absolution and Plenary Indulgence does forgive all sin including the punishments of sins in this life.

The Universal Life Church through its Monastery does not ask for any individual to confess any wrongs, to declare any sins or announce any misdeeds done in private.” (See quote source HERE)

:SIGH: Why do men always fight so against the simplicity of God’s Word?

Please consider this; Jesus told the Apostles that whatever sins they remitted would be remitted, and whatever sins they retained would be retained (See John 20:22, 23). Jesus never meant this as a promise that these men—or any men—would have power to absolve or condemn sin. This is especially true when one sees that the Bible says that only God has such power (See Mark 2:7, 10). Through the whole counsel of God’s Word what we do find is that Jesus was telling His Apostles that their word would play a key role in making His gospel promise a reality in men and women. To solidify this Jesus gave these men the keys to His kingdom (See Matt 16:13-19). A key is an instrument through which one can gain access to that which was unavailable to them. Jesus said that these apostolic keys would either bind men and keep them from accessing things here on earth and in heaven, or it would loose them to experience things here on earth and in heaven. “Bind” is to declare to be improper and unlawful; “loose” is to declare lawful. Here we see that the key is the Apostles’ Words and it functions according to how it is received by the hearer.

Now look at what Jesus prayed: “Neither pray I for these alone, BUT FOR THEM ALSO WHICH SHALL BELIEVE ON ME THROUGH THEIR WORD.” (John 17:20)

What word would they preach? Jesus answered that in verse eight and fourteen of the same chapter:

John 17:8
(8) For I HAVE GIVEN UNTO THEM THE WORDS WHICH THOU GAVEST ME; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

John 17:14
(14) I HAVE GIVEN THEM THY WORD; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

I hope this helps.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Lost and Found

The Catholic Encyclopedia defines “Absolution” as: that act of the priest whereby, in the Sacrament of Penance, HE FREES MAN FROM SIN. It presupposes on the part of the penitent, contrition, confession, and promise at least of satisfaction; on the part of the minister, valid reception of the Order of Priesthood and jurisdiction, GRANTED BY COMPETENT AUTHORITY, OVER THE PERSON RECEIVING THE SACRAMENT. That there is in the CHURCH POWER TO ABSOLVE SINS committed after baptism the Council of Trent thus declares: "But the Lord then principally instituted the Sacrament of Penance, when, being raised from the dead, He breathed upon His disciples saying, 'Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them, and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.' By which action so signal, and words so clear the consent of all the Fathers has ever understood that THE POWER OF FORGIVING AND RETAINING SINS WAS COMMUNICATED TO THE APOSTLES, AND TO THEIR LAWFUL SUCCESSORS for the reconciling of the faithful who have fallen after baptism" (Sess. XIV, i). (UPPERCASES added for emphasis)

Where does such practice lead? Look at what the Universal Life Church does with such forgiveness power:



:SIGH: Why do men always fight so against the simplicity of God’s Word?

Please consider this; Jesus told the Apostles that whatever sins they remitted would be remitted, and whatever sins they retained would be retained (See John 20:22, 23). Jesus never meant this as a promise that these men—or any men—would have power to absolve or condemn sin. This is especially true when one sees that the Bible says that only God has such power (See Mark 2:7, 10). Through the whole counsel of God’s Word what we do find is that Jesus was telling His Apostles that their word would play a key role in making His gospel promise a reality in men and women. To solidify this Jesus gave these men the keys to His kingdom (See Matt 16:13-19). A key is an instrument through which one can gain access to that which was unavailable to them. Jesus said that these apostolic keys would either bind men and keep them from accessing things here on earth and in heaven, or it would loose them to experience things here on earth and in heaven. “Bind” is to declare to be improper and unlawful; “loose” is to declare lawful. Here we see that the key is the Apostles’ Words and it functions according to how it is received by the hearer.

Now look at what Jesus prayed: “Neither pray I for these alone, BUT FOR THEM ALSO WHICH SHALL BELIEVE ON ME THROUGH THEIR WORD.” (John 17:20)

What word would they preach? Jesus answered that in verse eight of the same chapter:

John 17:8
(8) For I HAVE GIVEN UNTO THEM THE WORDS WHICH THOU GAVEST ME; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

John 17:14
(14) I HAVE GIVEN THEM THY WORD; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

I hope this helps.

Brother thank you for such great truth.

In Jesus Name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Steve Epley]

The Apostles had power to remit sins it was practiced by baptizing the penitent in Jesus Name that power is vested in the ministry today.

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

The Apostles had power to remit sins it was practiced by baptizing the penitent in Jesus Name that power is vested in the ministry today.

See there TRF...and you said it was apples and oranges.

I could have prophesied who it would be to come along and claim to be able to remit sins, but then...........


Lost and Found: thanks for the great explanation you gave

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

I was thinking recently about the Catholic doctrine of confession (to a priest), which we of course know is an unscriptural practice.

However, the Catholic church feels they have biblical justification for it. The scripture they use is (John 20:22-23):

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Therefore according to this argument, Roman Catholic priests, based on the authority handed down from the apostles, have the power to remit or retain sins.

Your thoughts please... How would you respond to someone who is Catholic, and defends the practice using that particular scripture?

I believe it has more to do with church discipline. The soon to be apostles were granted authority to lay the sins of those who rebelled against the gospel of Jesus Christ upon them. When a brother sins all efforts to restore him should be exhausted. However, if he will not repent and seek to reconcile himself with the Lord and those he has wronged his sins are to be layed upon him and he be given over to Satan. Jesus explained it as follows:

Matthew 18:15-18
15Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
18Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Paul also explained this authority:

I Corinthians 5:1-13
1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Being an elder comes with great spiritual responsibility. We shouldn't see this verse as something that grants an authority to use lightly. It is perhaps one of the most serious of responsibilities given to church leadership. Always strive to restore such a one...only bind their sins upon them if they absolutlely refuse to repent...in the hopes that being turned over to their sins will shake them to ultimately repent.