Forgiveness prior to baptism

[Adino]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

But does our relationship change with God when we believe and repent? Definitely! What is that change? Our way of thinking changes which is seen by a change in how we act. Although I'm not sure how our standing "positionally" with God is changed, I do know it is enough of a change to warrant God filling us with his Spirit.

Mizpeh, it is apparent you are greatly confused on these matters if you do not understand our "positional" status with God prior to baptism. We have begun to debate on other threads and you have left me hanging on several occasions. All your concerns have been answered in our past discussions. It is apparent you have either ignored my posts completely or simply choose to deny certain spiritual realities which are obviously present prior to being dunked.

You have chosen to make water baptism, which is a proof of repentance, a causal factor of sin remission when, in fact, it is not a "proof of repentance" which brings forgiveness but repentance itself. Baptism was an act which bore witness to a repentant heart. It bore witness to a repentant heart which had converted to Jesus Christ. Meaning, baptism bore witness to the repentant heart which had accepted the truth that Jesus Christ had taken care of our sin and that God had FORGIVEN us because of Christ's sacrifice. It was "of/unto repentance for the remission of sins." It declared repentance, a repentance for the remission of sins.

Scripture teaches again and again that the forgiveness of the cross is received in repentance. It does not teach that forgiveness comes in a "PROOF OF REPENTANCE" such as baptism.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Joelel

Nope,The scripture teaches walking in the light is love and keeping his commandments.If we love and keep his commandments only then can the blood cleanse us from sin.The blood is applied in keeping his word.That includes believing,repenting,being baptized,being filled with the Holy Ghost,loving,keeping his commandments,all of his teachings.You see we are saved by faith.Truth of God's word gives faith.

1 John 1:[4] And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
[5] This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
[6] If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
[7] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[10] If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

2:[1] My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
[2] And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
[6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
[7] Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
[8] Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
[9] He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
[10] He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
[11] But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

There you are back in 1John again. I thought I told you already that 1John deals with gnostic heresy. The light of the Gospel of Christ is the light John is trying to get the heretics to walk in. The gnostics did not believe anything of the physical world could effect their spiritual status, because they believed all matter was evil. They had a skewed view of the depravity of man and because of this skewed view had rejected the idea that Jesus had risen physically. They simply did not believe. He wanted them to walk in the light of the Gospel truth of Christ (1John 3:23; 4:15; 5:1-21). The commandment of God was to believe (1John 3:23).

Originally Posted by Adino

There you are back in 1John again. I thought I told you already that 1John deals with gnostic heresy. The light of the Gospel of Christ is the light John is trying to get the heretics to walk in. The gnostics did not believe anything of the physical world could effect their spiritual status, because they believed all matter was evil. They had a skewed view of the depravity of man and because of this skewed view had rejected the idea that Jesus had risen physically. They simply did not believe. He wanted them to walk in the light of the Gospel truth of Christ (1John 3:23; 4:15; 5:1-21). The commandment of God was to believe (1John 3:23).

But Adino, everyone knows we can't interpret scripture through context, culture, or history. We can only take it literally at face value with no other filters whatsoever.

*wink*

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Adino

My point concerning Acts 10:43 was...
I stand by this statement because it is absolutley true.

I agree with your statement as well:

The repenting heart returning to God via faith in Jesus Christ absolutely SHALL receive the remission / forgiveness of sins.

I don't agree with you on 'when' remission of sins happens.

]If you want to know where I get "through faith in his name" as an understanding for "preached in his name" then go to Acts 3:16 which states:

These terms are not synonomous. But preaching the gospel, the message of peace with God, that Jesus brought does brings faith and that faith in Jesus with the name of Jesus being invoked brings healing. Maybe that's what you saying but it didn't read that way in your other post that I responded to.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Adino

Mizpeh, it is apparent you are greatly confused on these matters if you do not understand our "positional" status with God prior to baptism. We have begun to debate on other threads and you have left me hanging on several occasions. All your concerns have been answered in our past discussions. It is apparent you have either ignored my posts completely or simply choose to deny certain spiritual realities which are obviously present prior to being dunked.

I'll look back at your prior posts now that I have more time and am not taking a class this semester.

I thought I made it clear there are certain spiritual realities which are present before water baptism but I don't believe remission of sins is not one of them. I've been thinking about some things Praxeas said on another thread about our position with God after repentance in regards to forgiveness and justification. I haven't come to a conclusion yet. I sense a certain disdain when you use the word, dunk, for baptism.

You have chosen to make water baptism, which is a proof of repentance, a causal factor of sin remission when, in fact, it is not a "proof of repentance" which brings forgiveness but repentance itself.

I didn't say water baptism was a proof of repentance.
Repentance and water baptism being remission of sins. I have chosen to make water baptism a causal factor in the remission of sins because I believe the Bible teaches that it is.

Baptism was an act which bore witness to a repentant heart. It bore witness to a repentant heart which had converted to Jesus Christ. Meaning, baptism bore witness to the repentant heart which had accepted the truth that Jesus Christ had taken care of our sin and that God had FORGIVEN us because of Christ's sacrifice.

I agree that baptism is an act which bears witness to a repentant heart. God FORGIVES because of Christ's sacrifice. Why do you put the word, forgive, in the past tense, forgiven? Sins aren't forgiven until there is confession and repentance. And, yes, it is Christ's sacrificial atonenment on the cross that affords us this forgiveness.

It was "of/unto repentance for the remission of sins." It declared repentance, a repentance for the remission of sins

Are you speaking of the baptism of John?

Scripture teaches again and again that the forgiveness of the cross is received in repentance. It does not teach that forgiveness comes in a "PROOF OF REPENTANCE" such as baptism.

Please show me where I said baptism was a proof of repentance. I don't recall writing that. I think maybe the words you use confuse me. "forgiveness of the cross" is one of them. I would say "the forgiveness that comes from the cross of Christ". Are we saying the same thing here? In my mind we aren't but maybe I'm being picky on wording when I shouldn't be.

[Brother Price]

I continued in this thread long enough to prove to me that my sins were remitted before the waters of baptism. I have read the actual scriptures put forth, and even studied the original Greek some to see that the Blood is applied at repentance of and confession of sins.

Scripture after scripture declares the necessity of water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, but not for salvation. Scripture has been shown repeatedly that baptism is because of salvation, a commandment for all believers. It cannot be for salvation because that would relegate salvation to a work, yes, even of the Law.

Here is a final thought. For me to be able to say that God will save the dying at repentance, but not us who are alive and healthy would make the Lord a respecter of persons. No way would God show mercy to one and not to all.

Thanks to all for the great discussion. It has bolstered this change in my life.

Sincerely,
William Price

[Adino]

Mizpeh, you just said:

I didn't say water baptism was a proof of repentance

Then you just turned around and said:

I agree that baptism is an act which bears witness to a repentant heart.

Please make up your mind.

Off to work. Catch you later.

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by Brother Price

I continued in this thread long enough to prove to me that my sins were remitted before the waters of baptism. I have read the actual scriptures put forth, and even studied the original Greek some to see that the Blood is applied at repentance of and confession of sins.

Scripture after scripture declares the necessity of water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, but not for salvation. Scripture has been shown repeatedly that baptism is because of salvation, a commandment for all believers. It cannot be for salvation because that would relegate salvation to a work, yes, even of the Law.

Here is a final thought. For me to be able to say that God will save the dying at repentance, but not us who are alive and healthy would make the Lord a respecter of persons. No way would God show mercy to one and not to all.

Thanks to all for the great discussion. It has bolstered this change in my life.

Sincerely,
William Price

I think you are being emotional.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Adino

Mizpeh, you just said:

Then you just turned around and said:
Please make up your mind.

Off to work. Catch you later.

You put quotation marks around the phrase "proof of repentance" as though I had said those words verbatim when I had been talking about repentance with works meet for repentance. I wasn't even thinking about baptism at the time. But, sure, only someone who believes will obey the gospel and be baptized for the remission of sins. I disagree with those who say baptism is a good work we do to earn heaven.

[Apprehended]

The very title of this thread is sooooo.....
eh...what's the word that I am looking for????

It suggests that if you go to God sorrowfully pleading for forgiviness of sins, promising not to continue in those sins...God will say, "Forgive you? Not a chance. Get out of my sight you filthy dog."

I'm still trying to think of the word that would best fit this attitude among some.

Anyway, some people serve a Trinity God. Some serve Buddah. Some serve Allah. Some serve a Tyrannical God who seems to glory in holding everyone's sins against them until they get the "formula" exactly right.

Now what is the word I'm looking for? Whatever the word might be, doubtfully few would be attracted to such a one.