Where are all the Acts 2:38 folks (3-steppers)??

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by philjones

Bill,

Congratulations on your Mom's move in faith toward Jesus! Do all you can to assist her.

If what you have hypothesized is proofed then in your position of the penitent, upon repenting, would also be a co-redeemer. This is a fallacious position unless you are going to further travel the path of reformed Calvinist teaching to the place of unqualified predestination and that even in repentance the penitent has no part at all in the process of obedience or salvation... not even assent.

Bro. Jones you hit the nail on the head they cannot have it both ways IF man has to cooperate in ONE point then according to their absurd teaching man is the saviour. To believe is a work Jesus said so. Jn. 6:28-29!
Thus only pure Calvinism will suffice this dilema they are in but I wouldn't be surprized if they didn't move on into this. One false doctrine begats another.

[scotty]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Bro. Jones you hit the nail on the head they cannot have it both ways IF man has to cooperate in ONE point then according to their absurd teaching man is the saviour. To believe is a work Jesus said so. Jn. 6:28-29!
Thus only pure Calvinism will suffice this dilema they are in but I wouldn't be surprized if they didn't move on into this. One false doctrine begats another.

Get your PM?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

If a man doesn't want to be identified with the Baptist he should promote Baptist doctrine.

If a man, or woman, doesn't want to be identified as a baptismal regenerationist [a doctrine also espoused by Catholics and other extreme groups] he should not promote said doctrine.

We are buried at baptism Elder? Really just buried?

Romans 6 says baptism identifies us w/ his death, burial and resurrection.

Paul likens it to all three steps

... works that our PAJC brethren would like us to re-enact.

All fulfilled by the Work of the Lamb.

--------------------------------
3Or do you not know that all of us who have been (E)baptized into (F)Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4Therefore we have been (G)buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was (H)raised from the dead through the (I)glory of the Father, so we too might walk in (J)newness of life.

Where does he make that point ... because he likens baptism to Christ's death verse 3 .... and HIS burial and resurrection in verse 4.

5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

The blood ... the work of the Lamb destroys sin ... in this context.

[SDG]

II. Then there is the issue of whether or not this "burial" indeed regenerates us ... is efficacious in quickening us by His Spirit into new birth.

Acts 10 still is the smoking gun ... against 3 step theology. If baptism is a burial of the dead man ... necessary to rid the man of the body of sin and wipe his sin stain ... then how could the Spirit of God quicken unto righteousness and life that which is still dead?

Does the indwelling of the Holy Ghost ["resurrrection"} represent the final piece of the 3 step puzzle that must be re-enacted that raises us into new life? ... does His Spirit do this while not setting us free of the law of sin and death or putting to death the deeds/sins of the body? (Romans 8:13)

------------------------------------------------

Romans 8 tells us:

1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in he likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--
13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
--------------------------------------

1. In Acts 10, we find those in the house of Cornelius showing evidence of being indwelt w/ the Holy Spirit yet had not buried their body of sin ... or carnal man. Some would even say because they had not been baptized they are not yet declared righteous/justified and/or their slate not wiped clean through a properly administered baptism that would effectuate sin remission.

Furthermore, w/ this sacramental mindset [a rite that mediates grace] are the first to say that unless one does not have the Spirit of Christ they are not His ... yet we see Cornelius being declared His, prior to water baptism.
(Romans 8:9)

We see the the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus setting him free from the law of sin and of death prior to re-enacting a burial of the body of sin???? (Romans 8:2)



2. Also we see that he is declared righteous before God and he is alive because of Christ's imputed righteousness ... by the Spirit indwelling. ....

Romans 8:10 - If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.



3. Finally if re-enactment theology is God-ordained ... repentance is death, baptism is burial and receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit is the resurrection ...

Then how can Cornelius through his being filled w/ the Holy Ghost have circumvented this process?

It is the initial indwelling of the Spirit of God that puts to DEATH THE DEEDS OF THE BODY SO THAT WE MAY BE QUICKENED TO LIFE, or Destroys the body of sin (Romans 6:6) ...

Romans 13 .... for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

These gaping holes in their theology show that one, namely Cornelius and those in his house, can be declared righteous, quickened unto life, put to death the deeds of the body, be declared His, set free from the law of sin and death .... not condemened in Christ Jesus ... PRIOR TO BEING FULLY SAVED ... REGENERATED ...OR COMPLETING THE NEW BIRTH PROCESS.

Cornelius was declared a son of God ... born of God ... prior to baptism. With all the priveleges ... full access to our Father and the inheritance of new life.

Romans 8
14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"
16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

All this before being BURIED INTO CHRIST and having the blood applied in his life???

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

This is where the rose colored glasses come off...

it is your view that does not tolerate divergent views on salvation ...

so much that an Affirmation statement assured the purging of those w/ different views ...

so much that fellow Apostolics are excluded because it is a point of fellowship.

The truth is plain ... You do not tolerate an opposing view on salvation and have expressed it ...

the most common way this is done ... is with the proverbial

"Is this still an Apostolic forum?" argument ...

Let's be real. You'd be invited to my pulpit ... because it's not a point of fellowship....

but someone who doesn't have your view is not welcome

and as one poster said today .... maybe even ... ANATHEMA.

This is probably the most accurate statement you have made on this forum in months. I AM intolerant of false doctrine. I am intolerant of trinitarianism, baptism as a Christian rite only, and many other views espoused on AFF.

I would never allow them to be expressed in the church I am blessed to pastor. As the pastor, it is my responsibility to guard against those things. Read Revelation chapters one through three.

The good thing is that you finally admit that you have a different view of salvation than Pentecostals.

AS to your "is this still an Apostolic forum" statement, I stand by it.

Seems there are quite a few folks wondering the same thing.Prax is right. You shoot all sorts of poison darts, and then get upset when folks don't enjoy the experience.

Look around dude, somebody's trying to tell you something, and you just won't listen.

All of this is said without malice. I truly wish this would all go away, but it never will with the labels being tossed around.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

If a man, or woman, doesn't want to be identified w/ baptismal regenerationist [a doctrine also espoused by Catholics and other extreme groups] he should not promote said doctrine.

We are buried at baptism Elder? Really just buried?

Romans 6 says baptism identifies us w/ his death, burial and resurrection.

Paul likens it to all three steps

... works that our PAJC brethren would like us to re-enact.

All fulfilled by the Work of the Lamb.

--------------------------------
3Or do you not know that all of us who have been (E)baptized into (F)Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4Therefore we have been (G)buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was (H)raised from the dead through the (I)glory of the Father, so we too might walk in (J)newness of life.

Where does he make that point ... because he likens baptism to Christ's death verse 3 .... and HIS burial and resurrection in verse 4.

5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

The blood ... the work of the Lamb destroys sin ... in this context.

Dan you know baptismal regeneration does NOT require faith are you intentionally misrepresenting us or you don't care.
That is why they baptize babies like their reform descendants.
Again Dan you will have to resurrect the great Apostle Paul and debate him. I just quote and believe what he said.
Buried WITH Him in baptism.
Baptized INTO His death.
Planted TOGETHER in the likeness of His death.

Dan who does NOT believe the blood destroys sin???? Not I.
ONLY the blood saves-redeems-sanctifies-forgives-remits-pardons sins.
That is NOT the argument the argument is when and how. NOT whether the blood does the work or not and YOU know that as well as I.
You create strawmen then debate them. But I am NOT your strawman and I will refute your every misrepresentation of the Apostolic message.
Was your father a Papist?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

All of this is said without malice. I truly wish this would all go away, but it never will with the labels being tossed around.

It works when we all do our part ... look around we've all got mud on our face.

[Brother Price]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Was your father a Papist?

OK, I was lurking for a moment before I needed to start getting ready, but when I said this, I logged back on and decided to throw this in.

Bro. Epley, that was so far below the belt, it was not funny. You know better than to do this, my dear brother. This is just uncalled for.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Dan you know baptismal regeneration does NOT require faith are you intentionally misrepresenting us or you don't care.
That is why they baptize babies like their reform descendants.
Again Dan you will have to resurrect the great Apostle Paul and debate him. I just quote and believe what he said.
Buried WITH Him in baptism.
Baptized INTO His death.
Planted TOGETHER in the likeness of His death.

No Elder the verse also includes the LIKENESS OF HIS RESURRECTION ... ALSO.

5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection

Either this passage describes that baptism fulfills all 3 steps or it shows that baptism is A LIKENESS to HIS DEATH, HIS BURIAL AND HIS RESURRECTION.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

II. Then there is the issue of whether or not this "burial" indeed regenerates us ... is efficacious in quickening us by His Spirit into new birth.

Acts 10 still is the smoking gun ... against 3 step theology. If baptism is a burial of the dead man ... necessary to rid the man of the body of sin and wipe his sin stain ... then how could the Spirit of God quicken unto righteousness and life that which is still dead?

Does the indwelling of the Holy Ghost ["resurrrection"} represent the final piece of the 3 step puzzle that must be re-enacted that raises us into new life? ... does His Spirit do this while not setting us free of the law of sin and death or putting to death the deeds/sins of the body? (Romans 8:13)

------------------------------------------------

Romans 8 tells us:

1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in he likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--
13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
--------------------------------------

1. In Acts 10, we find those in the house of Cornelius showing evidence of being indwelt w/ the Holy Spirit yet had not buried their body of sin ... or carnal man. Some would even say because they had not been baptized they are not yet declared righteous/justified and/or their slate not wiped clean through a properly administered baptism that would effectuate sin remission.

Furthermore, w/ this sacramental mindset [a rite that mediates grace] are the first to say that unless one does not have the Spirit of Christ they are not His ... yet we see Cornelius being declared His, prior to water baptism.
(Romans 8:9)

We see the the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus setting him free from the law of sin and of death prior to re-enacting a burial of the body of sin???? (Romans 8:2)



2. Also we see that he is declared righteous before God and he is alive because of Christ's imputed righteousness ... by the Spirit indwelling. ....

Romans 8:10 - If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.



3. Finally if re-enactment theology is God-ordained ... repentance is death, baptism is burial and receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit is the resurrection ...

Then how can Cornelius through his being filled w/ the Holy Ghost have circumvented this process?

It is the initial indwelling of the Spirit of God that puts to DEATH THE DEEDS OF THE BODY SO THAT WE MAY BE QUICKENED TO LIFE, or Destroys the body of sin (Romans 6:6) ...

Romans 13 .... for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

These gaping holes in their theology show that one, namely Cornelius and those in his house, can be declared righteous, quickened unto life, put to death the deeds of the body, be declared His, set free from the law of sin and death .... not condemened in Christ Jesus ... PRIOR TO BEING FULLY SAVED ... REGENERATED ...OR COMPLETING THE NEW BIRTH PROCESS.

Cornelius was declared a son of God ... born of God ... prior to baptism. With all the priveleges ... full access to our Father and the inheritance of new life.

Romans 8
14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"
16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

All this before being BURIED INTO CHRIST and having the blood applied in his life???

You would have a point in Acts 10 if verse 48 was not included. They were IMMEDIATELY commanded to be baptized in Jesus Name. That is why the term 3-stepper is absurd God fills with the Holy Ghost he has the priority to do it as He sees fit however He did not exclude them from obeying the gospel. You have NO point whatsoever. There is NO smoking gun your gun has NO bullets it is shooting blanks. Verse 48 is the smoking gun for you faith only folks. He COMMANDED them to be baptized in the Name. Thus repentance, baptism, HGB were all included in Acts 10 not excluded.