Water Baptism.....Just What Is It For?

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Jesus ALONE does NOT save anyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Man has to come to Jesus to be saved. Man has to HEAR-BELIEVE-OBEY!
Jesus has never saved anyone ALONE with their cooperation.

That is too Biblical Elder & makes to much sense!

You are right on!

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

So you believe a baptist man or woman who has "called on the name of the Lord" and walked in that light only until their death is going to here, "Well done though good and faithful servant"? I am sorry, but new birth is where life begins, and that occurs when one is born of water and of Spirit. While I would never criticize someone that has not reached that place, I would always encourage them that there is more. And new birth is just the beginning of the new life in Christ. There is room all the way from beginning to ending where one could step away, or get bogged down in legalistic ritual, and lose their salvation. But new birth is the beginning of the new life.

At least you are thinking. But, if you think that I said that I considered them to be "born again" only at confession of sins, you need to go back and read my last post. I did not say that.

While I would never be the judge of whether or not the Lord would take a soul to be with him if he should drop dead one minute after leave an altar of repentance and confession of sins, either not knowing that they should be baptized in the name of Jesus or did not have a chance to walk to all the way to the baptistry before they dropped dead.

I don't have any scripture to base my belief, hope and expectations upon but I coose to believe such an honest and purre heart would be received of the Lord just as surely as a new born baby that never been BORN AGAIN of the water and Spirit. I just believe that God is good and just as well as abundantly merciful.

I know that Jesus said, "Ye must be born again..." This is a general statement and one is expected to walk on in the light. However, babies, the retarded, and the incompetent are not going to be sent to hell regardless how we might interpret a rigid rule of scripture. Yes, I know that there are some people that believe that unregenrated babies go to hell, especially those born of unbelieving parents. I reject that thought as very horrible.

Nevertheless when Jesus is preached, lifted up, magnified and loved both in word and in deed, people will come to love and know Jesus, receiving Him, His teachings and His life.

Don't think that I would let people off the hook simply because they do not choose to obey the Gospel as I do not preach or teach any other plan of salvation that does not include the Jn 3:5 experience of the new birth. I have no other option.

I am sure that one must receive Jesus in their hearts by FAITH in contrition, confessing their sins and confessing Jesus before they are willing to be baptized or at least before baptism is effective in any sense of the Word. This is certainly true of receiving the Holy Ghost as well. One MUST be converted to the faith of Jesus, receiving that faith in their hearts lest you baptize sinners who subsequently fill the pews as a satisfied hipocrite carrying on a form of godliness.

God is a good God. He expects our journey to be more than one, two or thee steps. Only an infant takes just such a few steps. There is a walk. It is called the christian walk...walking in the light by which the blood of Jesus continually cleanses us from sin day by day.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

At least you are thinking. But, if you think that I said that I considered them to be "born again" only at confession of sins, you need to go back and read my last post. I did not say that.

While I would never be the judge of whether or not the Lord would take a soul to be with him if he should drop dead one minute after leave an altar of repentance and confession of sins, either not knowing that they should be baptized in the name of Jesus or did not have a chance to walk to all the way to the baptistry before they dropped dead.

I don't have any scripture to base my belief, hope and expectations upon but I coose to believe such an honest and purre heart would be received of the Lord just as surely as a new born baby that never been BORN AGAIN of the water and Spirit. I just believe that God is good and just as well as abundantly merciful.

I know that Jesus said, "Ye must be born again..." This is a general statement and one is expected to walk on in the light. However, babies, the retarded, and the incompetent are not going to be sent to hell regardless how we might interpret a rigid rule of scripture. Yes, I know that there are some people that believe that unregenrated babies go to hell, especially those born of unbelieving parents. I reject that thought as very horrible.

Nevertheless when Jesus is preached, lifted up, magnified and loved both in word and in deed, people will come to love and know Jesus, receiving Him, His teachings and His life.

Don't think that I would let people off the hook simply because they do not choose to obey the Gospel as I do not preach or teach any other plan of salvation that does not include the Jn 3:5 experience of the new birth. I have no other option.

I am sure that one must receive Jesus in their hearts by FAITH in contrition, confessing their sins and confessing Jesus before they are willing to be baptized or at least before baptism is effective in any sense of the Word. This is certainly true of receiving the Holy Ghost as well. One MUST be converted to the faith of Jesus, receiving that faith in their hearts lest you baptize sinners who subsequently fill the pews as a satisfied hipocrite carrying on a form of godliness.

God is a good God. He expects our journey to be more than one, two or thee steps. Only an infant takes just such a few steps. There is a walk. It is called the christian walk...walking in the light by which the blood of Jesus continually cleanses us from sin day by day.

I believe that your attempt to convey your passion that we preach Jesus ended up leaving a few with the impression that you did not think water baptism and receiving of the Holy Ghost was a salvational point.

I have lived my whole life believing if you can get someone to simply turn their attentions on Jesus, there will be no struggle when water baptism is to be administered, and there will be no problem with receiving the Holy Ghost. My baptist wife received it not knowing what it was. She only knew that others had it, and she wanted it if it was available to her. That was a wonderful tent meeting where I received the Holy Ghost also!

[Apprehended]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

I believe that your attempt to convey your passion that we preach Jesus ended up leaving a few with the impression that you did not think water baptism and receiving of the Holy Ghost was a salvational point.

Maybe I did. I suppose that it comes from not having been cut from the same cloth as everyother traditional Apostolic. I've said it many times in my life but more so recently, salvation does not begin with Acts 2:38 nor does it end there, as it is implied by so many dyed in the wool Apostolics. I hold their attitude in suspect especially when they make out like that a person is not saved (from the presence and power of sin) at an altar. Your Baptist sweetheart would have told you that she received a great deliverance in a Baptist altar. Too many Apostolics leave the Baptist folk in great confusion when they begin talking like they were not saved there. Of course they were saved...but I did not say born again. They KNOW that they were saved even though they are under the mistaken belief that they were born again.

I have lived my whole life believing if you can get someone to simply turn their attentions on Jesus, there will be no struggle when water baptism is to be administered, and there will be no problem with receiving the Holy Ghost. My baptist wife received it not knowing what it was. She only knew that others had it, and she wanted it if it was available to her. That was a wonderful tent meeting where I received the Holy Ghost also!

In that same tent meeting, there is no telling how many people came to Jesus in humble contrition, repenting of sin being converted to the faith and life of Jesus. Some call it saved, some call it a start, some call it just repentance, but in their minds they are sure that a supernatural event took place in their life leaving them with great joy and relief from the heavy guilt of sin.

To imply to them by our strict Apostolic, all or nothing Acts 2:38 attitude, that they got nothing at that altar will only leave them dismayed and confused. They will come to think of us as ding bats while knowing that heaven came down into their souls at that old baptist altar. They call it getting "saved." In the strictest sense of the Word taken from the Greek, you cannot but agree with them. So don't fuss with them. If they have truly received the faith of Jesus in their hearts, there will be no problem in leading them on, as they will be hungry for more of God. "More of God" should be a disposition of attitude that should never leave us until we make it home.

Hope I am clearer. I am not nor have I ever been a traditionalist. It is even reflected in my preaching too.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

Maybe I did. I suppose that it comes from not having been cut from the same cloth as everyother traditional Apostolic. I've said it many times in my life but more so recently, salvation does not begin with Acts 2:38 nor does it end there, as it is implied by so many dyed in the wool Apostolics. I hold their attitude in suspect especially when they make out like that a person is not saved (from the presence and power of sin) at an altar. Your Baptist sweetheart would have told you that she received a great deliverance in a Baptist altar. Too many Apostolics leave the Baptist folk in great confusion when they begin talking like they were not saved there. Of course they were saved...but I did not say born again. They KNOW that they were saved even though they are under the mistaken belief that they were born again.

This is where we disagree. I do not believe one can be saved without being born again, as it is the born again experience that causes one to enter Gods Kingdom.

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

This is where we disagree. I do not believe one can be saved without being born again, as it is the born again experience that causes one to enter Gods Kingdom.

No sir...

It is not that we disagree. It is simply a misunderstanding of the term. Study the word "saved." You might find that we are more in harmony that you give credence to.

Let me ask this question...but first read this scripture...

Jam 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Have you ever seen a rank sinner get healed by someone praying for them? I have. How just someone that has only been to a Baptist altar, how about someone that is nothing more than a member of the Methodist chruch? I've seen them healed by the prayer of faith.

The bible says that the prayer of faith shall save them. Does that mean that the prayer of faith will make them "born again?" No. It is simply that the prayer of faith will deliver them.

A sinner's prayer of faith in asking God to save them from sin, with faith in a compassionate Christ will surely find that forgiveness...or deliverance. Jesus will never turn one away who comes to him in faith asking for forgiveness. He never will. Thus, their faith has made them whole from the guilt of and power of sin. That is not being born again. That is simply delieverance by faith in the same sense that the sick who calls for the elders of the church is "saved" from their sickness or disease.

From the scripture quoted above, we find that when God delivers someone from their sickness their sins are also forgiven them. The qualification is not obedience to Acts 2:38 to be saved in this sense.

Study the word "saved" and you will see that there is a lot of confusion in the church world concerning its true meaning.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

No sir...

It is not that we disagree. It is simply a misunderstanding of the term. Study the word "saved." You might find that we are more in harmony that you give credence to.

Let me ask this question...but first read this scripture...

Jam 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Have you ever seen a rank sinner get healed by someone praying for them? I have. How just someone that has only been to a Baptist altar, how about someone that is nothing more than a member of the Methodist chruch? I've seen them healed by the prayer of faith.

The bible says that the prayer of faith shall save them. Does that mean that the prayer of faith will make them "born again?" No. It is simply that the prayer of faith will deliver them.

A sinner's prayer of faith in asking God to save them from sin, with faith in a compassionate Christ will surely find that forgiveness...or deliverance. Jesus will never turn one away who comes to him in faith asking for forgiveness. He never will. Thus, their faith has made them whole from the guilt of and power of sin. That is not being born again. That is simply delieverance by faith in the same sense that the sick who calls for the elders of the church is "saved" from their sickness or disease.

From the scripture quoted above, we find that when God delivers someone from their sickness their sins are also forgiven them. The qualification is not obedience to Acts 2:38 to be saved in this sense.

Study the word "saved" and you will see that there is a lot of confusion in the church world concerning its true meaning.

I understand that we use the word "saved" in a way that it is not meant to be used. And I do understand that the word saved comes from the greek word "Sozo" which means the healing of the whole man (body soul, and spirit). But I do not believe one is ready to stand before God in an unregenerated (not born again) state.

IMO, The verse in James in context is not for a "non-born again person", but one that is born again, yet has allowed the enemy to inflict themn with sickness, with the possibility that the opening occurred through their sinning.

[Apprehended]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

I understand that we use the word "saved" in a way that it is not meant to be used. And I do understand that the word saved comes from the greek word "Sozo" which means the healing of the whole man (body soul, and spirit). But I do not believe one is ready to stand before God in an unregenerated (not born again) state.

Neither do I believe that one is ready to stand before God in an unregenerated condition. Sozo does not neccessarily have to mean that deliverance must be from all three conditions to be sozo. For instance, one can be healed in their body (sozo) without having a mental problem healed, even though sozo is available for what ails ya.

IMO, The verse in James in context is not for a "non-born again person", but one that is born again, yet has allowed the enemy to inflict themn with sickness, with the possibility that the opening occurred through their sinning.

So you think that healing is for only those who have experience Acts 2:38? That is not my belief at all. Experience by the thousands have proven to me otherwise. I've seen rank sinners get healed just sitting in the chairs, hearing and believing the Word preached.

The truth is, the prayer of faith will indeed save (deliver) the sick and if they have sinned, they will be forgiven without stipulation in regards to whether or not they have obeyed Acts 2:38. The scripture is quite plain. Not only that, Ive seen it many, many times. I've seen the grace and goodness of a good God in action...live and in color.

I remember Jack Coe was such a man of faith that he did not take time praying for every person in those long lines. He would go down the line almost as fast as he could jerking people out of wheel chairs, grabbing crutches, breaking eye glasses, punching tumors, and squeezing goiters...on and on. One old sinner man started jumping up and down and hollering, "I can hear, I can hear." Brother Coe said, Of course you can hear, what did you expect?" He said, "I just got in line to help my mother stand here but you jerked out my hearng aid and instantly my ears popped open." LOL... Sort of dangerous to get around men of faith...

Yes, that old sinner man got the double cure. Healing for his hearing and forgiveness for his sins too...according to scripture.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

Neither do I believe that one is ready to stand before God in an unregenerated condition. Sozo does not neccessarily have to mean that deliverance must be from all three conditions to be sozo. For instance, one can be healed in their body (sozo) without having a mental problem healed, even though sozo is available for what ails ya.



So you think that healing is for only those who have experience Acts 2:38? That is not my belief at all. Experience by the thousands have proven to me otherwise. I've seen rank sinners get healed just sitting in the chairs, hearing and believing the Word preached.

The truth is, the prayer of faith will indeed save (deliver) the sick and if they have sinned, they will be forgiven without stipulation in regards to whether or not they have obeyed Acts 2:38. The scripture is quite plain. Not only that, Ive seen it many, many times. I've seen the grace and goodness of a good God in action...live and in color.

I remember Jack Coe was such a man of faith that he did not take time praying for every person in those long lines. He would go down the line almost as fast as he could jerking people out of wheel chairs, grabbing crutches, breaking eye glasses, punching tumors, and squeezing goiters...on and on. One old sinner man started jumping up and down and hollering, "I can hear, I can hear." Brother Coe said, Of course you can hear, what did you expect?" He said, "I just got in line to help my mother stand here but you jerked out my hearng aid and instantly my ears popped open." LOL... Sort of dangerous to get around men of faith...

Yes, that old sinner man got the double cure. Healing for his hearing and forgiveness for his sins too...according to scripture.

I think you misunderstood my thoughts, or I did not convey them clear enough. Healing is available to anyone that will believe and receive it. I just believe the context of James chapter 5 is addressing born again believers, and not those that are not in the Church. I could be wrong, but that is my view at present. There are other verses that give room for healing to those outside the church.

Jam 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and [your] nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.
Jam 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
Jam 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Jam 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Jam 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

I think you misunderstood my thoughts, or I did not convey them clear enough. Healing is available to anyone that will believe and receive it. I just believe the context of James chapter 5 is addressing born again believers, and not those that are not in the Church. I could be wrong, but that is my view at present. There are other verses that give room for healing to those outside the church.

Jam 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and [your] nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.
Jam 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
Jam 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Jam 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Jam 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Thanks for clarifying that...

Now to the bolded portion of your statement. I agree that there are those scriptures. So, if a sinner is healed in his body that is also "sozo." Which is to say "saved." Did not Jesus promise to forgive all who came to him? To forgive sin is to roll away the guilt of sin. That is also (sozo) "saved."

ARe you saying that Jesus will not forgive a sinner of his sins who comes to Him confessing and asking for such a release and burden of guilt until he takes all three steps? If so, here we must agree to disagree. I believe the worst sinner who ever lived can come to Jesus and be "saved," (sozo) from the most wicked sin and cleansed from the deepest stain by the blood of the cross by confessing and asking for that pardon and cleansing.

I do not believe that Jesus refuses any who come to him in faith believing. He will save (sozo/deliver) all who come to Him.