Where are all the Acts 2:38 folks (3-steppers)??

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Sherri

I really don't know any "one steppers" who say you just have to believe in Jesus, as St. Matt stated. I would consider myself more of a one stepper than three, but I don't think it's enough to just believe. You have to confess your sins and turn from the ways of the world. To repent means to do an about-face and start heading the other direction. To leave the kingdom of darkness and enter the kingdom of God's dear Son. That is more than easy believism!

I thought both one and three steppers believe that a person has to have faith in Christ and then the steps ....repent (stop here if you are a one-stepper), water baptism, Spirit baptism. (the baptisms can be in reversed order)

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

God is responsible, that is why there is a judgment. If, after allowing evil to have reign He did nothing about it, then He would be guilty of injustice.

There's a difference between "responsibility" and "guilt." Guilt means there was a moral failing on the part of the guilty. God is not "guilty." He is responsible, however. It is His creation and the results of His act in creating are his responsibility.

But back to the effect of of grace in salvation, Romans 9:16: "it does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy."

Of course, this is just one side of the coin. But it is the side that we as Apostolics often overlook. There is a fundamental paradox between free will and determinism. The debates around this are older than even the Christian faith. We could have the same debates endlessly here but neither side will be resolved, because fundamentally both sides are correct.

And as Christians we need both sides preached in balance. Grace and human responsibility. Both are correct.

Okay, I'll let this one drop even though there is more I could say.

In fact it can be said that you are not even making a choice in the matter. The choice was made for you before you were ever born when God selected you for salvation from before the foundation of the world.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Okay, I'll let this one drop even though there is more I could say.

I believe we're on the same page with regard to Acts 2:38 salvation. It's just that there's "another side of the coin" that is equally as true.

I think that because there are millions of Evangelicals who preach ONLY that other side, many of us have conditioned ourselves to resist the ideas of predestination and grace. In the UPC we have often said, "the church is predestined, but not the individual..." That is a wrong way to articulate this.

We as individuals are predestined. We are made and fashioned to be the kind of vessels that our Maker intended. Yet, simultaneously it is our own free will choices that determine the type of people that we are. It's a paradox.

And Mizpeh, I wish you and your family the happiest of New Years. I hope 2008 is a great year of revival and joy for you!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

One step = Repent and you are forgiven, filled with the Holy Spirit, and saved. No water baptism and no Spirit baptism with the evidence of speaking in tongues needed. If you die of a heart attack immediately after you repent, you are on your way to glory.

Thanks Mizpeh, I've just not heard it completely articulated. I've heard it supported and I've heard it referenced or attempts to refute it, but I haven't heard it articulated.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I believe we're on the same page with regard to Acts 2:38 salvation. It's just that there's "another side of the coin" that is equally as true.

I think that because there are millions of Evangelicals who preach ONLY that other side, many of us have conditioned ourselves to resist the ideas of predestination and grace. In the UPC we have often said, "the church is predestined, but not the individual..." That is a wrong way to articulate this.

We as individuals are predestined. We are made and fashioned to be the kind of vessels that our Maker intended. Yet, simultaneously it is our own free will choices that determine the type of people that we are. It's a paradox.

And Mizpeh, I wish you and your family the happiest of New Years. I hope 2008 is a great year of revival and joy for you!

I would love to discuss predestination with you but it sounds like your not interested. So some other time. I believe in predestination but the way some folks articulate it, I think they portray God as unjust and arbitrary. Which is contrary to His very nature.

Thank you so much for the New Year wish.

Are you are prophet? Because I already know both revival and joy are in God's plans for me this year and the church I attend.

I wish you and your family all the best as well this New Year.


I have to ask. My curiosity is getting the best of me. Do you go to church with Carp? Do you sit next to him in the pew?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Thad

Everyone already knows the Answer to that Matt. surely Aquila does too i'm sure.

The one steppers believe you only have to accept Jesus christ as your personal savior. we've all heard the sinner's prayer -no?

Thad, everyone doesn't know the answer to the question. Your answer illustrates my point. Mizpeh's answer was that the "one stepper" believes that the sinner must "repent" to be saved. That's a vast difference when compared to what you're saying. You say that the "one stepper" believes that the sinner must "accept Jesus" as their personal savior. The comparison just between your explaination and Mizpeh's explaination is essentially "repentance" vs. "easy believism".

I highly doubt the "one stepper" holds to "easy believism". Repentance is a very deep and powerful thing. If one repents of sin, with true godly sorrow, and turns toward God asking forgiveness, that is no lite matter. If one repents of sin they have experienced a true change of heart based on circumstance and/or revelation. Should they continue living they will certainly grow in grace and truth, desiring to be water baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost. However, should they die on the way to their baptism or not last through the night in the hospital, the "one stepper" would count them saved. The factor is true "repentance" not merely "believing" in the Lord Jesus as personal savior. Certainly the one stepper might call into question the salvation of one professing belief in Christ, yet not living a fully repentant and obedient life, including the desire to be water baptized and filled with the Spirit.

Do you see the difference?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Thanks Mizpeh, I've just not heard it completely articulated. I've heard it supported and I've heard it referenced or attempts to refute it, but I haven't heard it articulated.

Your welcome.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Thad, everyone doesn't know the answer to the question. Your answer illustrates my point. Mizpeh's answer was that the "one stepper" believes that the sinner must "repent" to be saved. That's a vast difference when compared to what you're saying. You say that the "one stepper" believes that the sinner must "accept Jesus" as their personal savior. The comparison just between your explaination and Mizpeh's explaination is essentially "repentance" vs. "easy believism".

I highly doubt the "one stepper" holds to "easy believism". Repentance is a very deep and powerful thing. If one repents of sin, with true godly sorrow, and turns toward God asking forgiveness, that is no lite matter. If one repents of sin they have experienced a true change of heart based on circumstance and/or revelation. Should they continue living they will certainly grow in grace and truth, desiring to be water baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost. However, should they die on the way to their baptism or not last through the night in the hospital, the "one stepper" would count them saved. The factor is true "repentance" not merely "believing" in the Lord Jesus as personal savior. Certainly the one stepper might call into question the salvation of one professing belief in Christ, yet not living a fully repentant and obedient life, including the desire to be water baptized and filled with the Spirit.

Do you see the difference?

I would say there is a vast array of "one steppers" just as there is "3 steppers".

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Thad, everyone doesn't know the answer to the question. Your answer illustrates my point. Mizpeh's answer was that the "one stepper" believes that the sinner must "repent" to be saved. That's a vast difference when compared to what you're saying. You say that the "one stepper" believes that the sinner must "accept Jesus" as their personal savior. The comparison just between your explaination and Mizpeh's explaination is essentially "repentance" vs. "easy believism".

I highly doubt the "one stepper" holds to "easy believism". Repentance is a very deep and powerful thing. If one repents of sin, with true godly sorrow, and turns toward God asking forgiveness, that is no lite matter. If one repents of sin they have experienced a true change of heart based on circumstance and/or revelation. Should they continue living they will certainly grow in grace and truth, desiring to be water baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost. However, should they die on the way to their baptism or not last through the night in the hospital, the "one stepper" would count them saved. The factor is true "repentance" not merely "believing" in the Lord Jesus as personal savior. Certainly the one stepper might call into question the salvation of one professing belief in Christ, yet not living a fully repentant and obedient life, including the desire to be water baptized and filled with the Spirit.

Do you see the difference?

The problem is there are some who do not articulate this doctrine as well as you have just done and they appear to say that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. On top of this they don't define what they mean by faith. Is their definition of faith a mental assent or something more? I think that is why Thad gave that meaning. But most of the one stepper/PCI adherents confess repentance and not just faith.

[Aquila]

Here's a sincere question, primarily for the "three stepper" brothers, but I don't mind hearing everyone's answer.

If a man lay dying in the hospital and pleaded with you to pray with him as he made his peace with God...would you?

Please include in your answer as to if you are a 3 Stepper or not. Thanks and God bless you guys.