Romans 10:9

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I never said the following was not true, however the only part of the bronze serpent story that is elaborated on is the part about being lifted up. He never says "and just as they looked to the bronze serpent in faith to be healed so too if they look to me hanging on the cross to be saved they will be saved"....it might be true, but the text does not say that and it seems you are either assuming that is what was meant or reading it into the text

I could list you commentary after commentary which say just the opposite. They would say the intended implication is a definite one of the soul looking to the lifted Christ in faith for salvation just as they looked to the serpent in faith to be healed. Many would add the reference of Isaiah 45:22 which calls on man to "look on me [YHWH] and be saved."

The words "whosoever believeth in him" in verse 15 are very clearly connected to the concept of the salvation which came by looking upon the lifted serpent. The parallel is extreme because it is faith in the lifted objects which brings salvation in both counts. To remove this concept from the serpent on the pole event is ..... forced blindness. Saving faith in Christ is paralleled to the saving faith those had in the wilderness when they looked on the raised serpent. I realize this very apparent connection would require you to forfeit a bit of your paradigm, but I do pray you strive for objectivity here.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

...Those same people that had faith to be healed failed to enter the promised land because of a lack of faith.....

What is your comment on this part Adino?

My comment is that I do not see a real need to comment. The faith condition of those who did or did not enter into the promised land is absolutely irrelevant to the faith which brought physical salvation to those healed from the deadly venom of the serpents. John 3 speaks to the event of the raised serpent and to nothing more. A physical healing by faith alone in an object lifted is compared to a spiritual healing by faith alone in an object lifted.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

A disciple is not necessarily a believer though. Judas was a disciple.

True, God alone would know the condition of a man's heart. Only those who confessed Christ were to be baptized. To the church at large confession of faith was the only thing they had to go on to justify baptism. Whether Judas was a true believer any time prior to the betrayal is left to God. Did Judas betray in a time of weakness? When was his mind made up? I dunno. That he would betray was known only to Christ who gave him sop and not to the others, so there was certainly a feigned belief if nothing else. That Judas was a believer when he took his own life seems clear.

Bottom line, Christ first made disciples and those who were considered true believing disciples were THEN baptized.

[Adino]

Back to work.....bummer.

Everyone, take care and HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Adino

I could list you commentary after commentary which say just the opposite. They would say the intended implication is a definite one of the soul looking to the lifted Christ in faith for salvation just as they looked to the serpent in faith to be healed. Many would add the reference of Isaiah 45:22 which calls on man to "look on me [YHWH] and be saved."

The words "whosoever believeth in him" in verse 15 are very clearly connected to the concept of the salvation which came by looking upon the lifted serpent. The parallel is extreme because it is faith in the lifted objects which brings salvation in both counts. To remove this concept from the serpent on the pole event is ..... forced blindness. Saving faith in Christ is paralleled to the saving faith those had in the wilderness when they looked on the raised serpent. I realize this very apparent connection would require you to forfeit a bit of your paradigm, but I do pray you strive for objectivity here.

says the opposite of what? You asked for exegesis right? Read the text bro...it simply only mentions Jesus being lifted up like the bronze serpent would..the rest is conjecture....it might be right, but you asked about the text right?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Adino

My comment is that I do not see a real need to comment. The faith condition of those who did or did not enter into the promised land is absolutely irrelevant to the faith which brought physical salvation to those healed from the deadly venom of the serpents. John 3 speaks to the event of the raised serpent and to nothing more. A physical healing by faith alone in an object lifted

It is not irrelevant. The point being we are talking analogies and the promised land is the analogy of entering the kingdom of God....all those that had faith for healing (not salvation) did not enter into the promised land.

I mean, if the analogy is to be taken beyond what the text actually said...though perhaps implied, then we have to look at it all.

Yes....they looked at the bronze serpent and were healed...was that enough to get them into the promised land? No..was their faith in the bronze serpent? I doubt it. It was in God, but in obeying their faith was excercized. Faith without works really is dead. The works themselves never saved but their faith is only excercized in obedience to what God said....why did they need to look AT the serpent? Why not just have faith? WE can go on all day long. Faith is always the means of salvation, but there is always also an extension of that faith in practice that for some reason or another is required by God. In this case it was looking at the bronze serpent

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Adino

True, God alone would know the condition of a man's heart. Only those who confessed Christ were to be baptized. To the church at large confession of faith was the only thing they had to go on to justify baptism. Whether Judas was a true believer any time prior to the betrayal is left to God. Did Judas betray in a time of weakness? When was his mind made up? I dunno. That he would betray was known only to Christ who gave him sop and not to the others, so there was certainly a feigned belief if nothing else. That Judas was a believer when he took his own life seems clear.

Bottom line, Christ first made disciples and those who were considered true believing disciples were THEN baptized.

Well I agree actually...you don't baptized unbelievers. You don't suddenly become a believer by being baptized. You only baptize believers. That though alone dose not argue against a three stepper viewpoint other than it might put a monkey wrench in the notion that sins are not remitted till baptism.

I see a distinction between justification, sanctification, regeneration etc etc I don't think they automatically all happen at the same time either....they can, but they are distinct. A person is justified by faith alone.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Well I agree actually...you don't baptized unbelievers. You don't suddenly become a believer by being baptized. You only baptize believers. That though alone dose not argue against a three stepper viewpoint other than it might put a monkey wrench in the notion that sins are not remitted till baptism.

I see a distinction between justification, sanctification, regeneration etc etc I don't think they automatically all happen at the same time either....they can, but they are distinct. A person is justified by faith alone.

Does the justification come through faith or because of faith?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Does the justification come through faith or because of faith?

God justifies us according to our faith

[bishoph]

Originally Posted by augustianian

Scotty,

That is "as the OP says" but...if it is the Spirit that gives life then how can a "dead" man have his heart right??

How can a "dead" man repent, true or falsely, when he is dead??

What exactly is "false repentance"??
Repentance, or conversion, is not accomplished apart from the Holy Spirit, it is the direct result of the work of the Holy Spirit...a work that is always done on someone whose heart is NOT right. It's called regeneration.

I'll leave that alone for right now...but if you follow the antecedent of the phrase "not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance" in II Peter 3:9 it's the word "you" which means that Peter is talking to believers.

Because that gift is not given to them. By the way, can you show me where Paul spoke in tongues when he received the Holy Spirit??

If a person truly repents, that in and of itself IS evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit. Since God knows the heart, as you acknowledge, then how can you deny a non-tongue speaking salvation especially since there is only a tacit link, that can be easily refuted, between the infilling of the Holy Spirit and "speaking in tongues."

It seems to me that you want it both ways.

This is a very interesting topic for me and one which is central to our faith. With all due respect to those with differing opinions set forth on this thread who will quote from the "overwhelming" abundance of theological commentary as evidence of the veracity of their doctrinal authenticity; I choose to disagree.

In the copied portion of the post, Augustianian stated that "if a person repents, that in and of itself IS evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit." This is in direct opposition to what is found in Acts 8 12-17

12But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. 14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Notice they had received the word and were believers, according to your theology, when they repented/believed they were filled with the Holy Spirit. This is simply not supported by scripture.

Secondly your assertion that Paul's instruction concerning gifts, includes a statement that there are believers who do not speak with tongues is a misstatement at best. Paul was clearly teaching about and setting in order the operation of the gifts, one of which was tongues. Thus, Paul's question, do all speak with tongues, is not an affirmation that some did not speak with tongues, but rather that all do not have the "gift" of tongues. (Notice in the same verse he addresses interpretation of tongues which is another "gift.") However, one cannot have nor operate in one of the "gifts" of the spirit unless he/she has received the Spirit from which the gifts emanate.

Further clarity is derived when we look at the Greek rendering of the word gift used in Acts 2:38, for example, which is dorea, and simply means a free gratis gift. Whereas the word used in 1 Corinthians is Charisma and is defined as gifts denoting extraordinary powers, or abilities.

I look forward to further discussion.