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  #1121  
Old 01-02-2008, 08:18 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Some people might be so ill that even moving them means death.....that might happen before they even get to the water and be baptized....
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #1122  
Old 01-02-2008, 08:35 PM
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pelathais pelathais is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh View Post
The person is dying, Pel. What difference does it make if these things get wet?
I dunno. It's just everytime I've ever been involved with hospital stuff everybody's so touchy about everything. I usually get into trouble for "exploring" and "experimenting." And let's say, the patient may not be terminal. Just very sick.

I'm not looking for an excuse to keep someone out of the water, but when it comes to understanding the mechanics of what really does transpire at baptism, examining some extreme scenarios might be illuminating.

Also, as a nurse, how would you handle a bunch of seemingly desperate "Bible thumpers" who all want to move one of your patients out of their room and down the hall to the hot tub? Such intrusions must be a hassle, whatever the soteriology that's involved.
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  #1123  
Old 01-02-2008, 08:47 PM
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Jekyll Jekyll is offline
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Ahh, the ole, "When did you stop beating your wife?" Question
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  #1124  
Old 01-02-2008, 09:03 PM
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pelathais pelathais is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jekyll View Post
Ahh, the ole, "When did you stop beating your wife?" Question
You are amazing. You cut right through all of the haze and confusion and get right down to business. But what are you talking about?
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  #1125  
Old 01-03-2008, 06:32 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seguidordejesus View Post
All these deathbead conversion ceremonies make me want to add one more complication:

Assuming I'm a three-stepper:

Which is God more likely to save? - A person who has never heard the Gospel and repents on their deathbed and only repents?

Or

Someone who has heard the Gospel before (once or many times) and only at their death do they decide to repent?

It would seem to me that #2 already had their chance.
When you say that one "had their chance" I think you have to be consistant. I heard the gospel for years before I finally "accepted" it. Technically, didn't I already "have my chance"?

Here's an honest question...why do we want to make it difficult for a truly repentant believer to be saved?

Personally, I believe that as long as a person is alive and conscious they have a chance to accept the gospel. Sure, as is being debated here, some may not be capable of obeying that gospel in the sense of baptism etc. However, they can accept the gospel and cry out to the Lord.
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  #1126  
Old 01-03-2008, 06:37 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philjones View Post
But, Aquila, if the child never makes it to the place of taking a breath and dies in the womb do you celebrate its birthdate?
The celebration of a birth day is a cultural ceremony. Some cultures never celebrate a birth day...the issue is that, once conceived, the child is a live regardless as to if it is carried to term or not.

Would you advocate we only consider one alive the moment they are "born"?
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  #1127  
Old 01-03-2008, 06:40 AM
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Apprehended Apprehended is offline
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It appears to me that three stepper Apostolics (and I am oneof them) have become professionals at minimizing the all inclusive power of the blood of Jesus as evidenced in this discussion. Acts, without the Gospel is bloodless.
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  #1128  
Old 01-03-2008, 06:41 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Poster View Post
I believe this falls under that special category called "God is not stupid."
Does this therefore mean that God can save those who cannot be water baptized but rather repent with a sincere heart?
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  #1129  
Old 01-03-2008, 06:50 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd View Post
You know, at the end of the day, none of us are responsible for the "exceptions" God is.

Nor are we called to create a plan based on some list of exceptions.

God has given us his Word for us to follow. Jesus told Peter to tell the rest of us (Please note, Peter not Paul).

Peter preached the Gospel, then when asked by those whose hearts were pricked, he told them to repent, be baptized, and recieve the gift of the HG.

What God does with someone on their death bed is His perogative. I am not responsible, nor do I feel compelled to change the message to fit the circumstance.

I simply follow a simple truth and let God be God.
Let's look closely at what Peter told them:

Acts 2:14-43
14But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. 22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call. 40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

Peter opened by stating that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be....saved. Then he admonishes them to repent (and be water baptized) for the remission of sins and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Yes we must preach and teach that Christians are to obey and therefore are to be water baptized in Jesus name and filled with the Holy Ghost...but let's not forget what Peter said at the opening of his sermon. You see, Peter admonished them to repent of sin and take upon them the symbolism of burial through baptism, and then they were to receive the Holy Ghost; because taking part in these things were part of their promise. However, when speaking of being "saved" Peter based it on "calling upon the name of the Lord."
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  #1130  
Old 01-03-2008, 07:01 AM
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Ferd Ferd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apprehended View Post
It appears to me that three stepper Apostolics (and I am oneof them) have become professionals at minimizing the all inclusive power of the blood of Jesus as evidenced in this discussion. Acts, without the Gospel is bloodless.
that may be true in some instances but not in this thread.

we have repeatedly stated that we believe the Gospel, preach the Gospel, love the Gospel. the Gospel is JESUS. it is what Peter preached on the Day of Pentecost.

im not sure what you are talking about?


Just because our detractors have said this does not make it true.
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