Five-fold ministry = Moses + 4 carriers of Ark??

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by Rev

And when they had appointed for them elders in every church (ceirotonhsantev de autoiv kat ekklhsian presbuterouv). They needed also some form of organization, though already churches. Note distributive use of kata with ekklhsian (#2:46; 5:42; Tit 1:5). ceirotonew (from ceirotonov, extending the hand, ceir, hand, and teinw, to stretch) is an old verb that originally meant to vote by show of the hands, finally to appoint with the approval of an assembly that chooses as in #2Co 8:19, and then to appoint without regard to choice as in Josephus (Ant. XIII. 2, 2) of the appointment of Jonathan as high priest by Alexander. So in #Ac 10:41 the compound proceiratonew is used of witnesses appointed by God. But the seven (deacons) were first selected by the Jerusalem church and then appointed (katasthsomen) by the apostles. That is probably the plan contemplated by Paul in his directions to Titus (#Tit 1:5) about the choice of elders. It is most likely that this plan was the one pursued by Paul and Barnabas with these churches. They selected the elders in each instance and Paul and Barnabas "ordained" them as we say, though the word ceirotonew does not mean that. "Elders" were mentioned first in #11:30. Later Paul will give the requirements expected in these "elders" or "bishops" (#Php 1:1) as in #1Ti 3:1-7; Tit 1:5-9. It is fairly certain that these elders were chosen to correspond in a general way with the elders in the Jewish synagogue after which the local church was largely copied as to organization and worship. Paul, like Jesus, constantly worshipped and spoke in the synagogues. Already it is plain, as at Antioch in Syria (#11:26), that the Christians can no longer count on the use of the Jewish synagogue. They must have an organization of their own. The use of the plural here implies what was true at Philippi (#Php 1:1) and Ephesus (#Ac 20:17,28) that each church (one in each city) "had its college of elders" (Hackett) as in Jerusalem (#21:18). Elder (presbuterov) was the Jewish name and bishop (episkopov) the Greek name for the same office. "Those who are called elders in speaking of Jewish communities are called bishops in speaking of Gentile communities" (Hackett). Hovey rightly holds against Hackett that teaching was a normal function of these elders, pastors or bishops as they were variously called (#1Ti 3:2; Tit 1:9; 1Co 12:28,30; Eph 4:11).

Over look the Greek words they won't copy here correctly.

Thank you, that explains it a lot better for me. So elders are not just someone that has been around a long time? That was my definition of an elder. They were actually ordained into office by the apostles? And so bishops are above a pastor? And the pastor is above the assembly of a particular church?

[Rev]

Originally Posted by cneasttx

Thank you, that explains it a lot better for me. So elders are not just someone that has been around a long time? That was my definition of an elder. They were actually ordained into office by the apostles? And so bishops are above a pastor? And the pastor is above the assembly of a particular church?

Today many pastors are called bishop by themselves and others, especially those outside of an organization. What happened in the beginning of the church has nothing to do with what goes on now. Keep in mind that there is a lot of difference between an organizational structure with it's different offices and the spiritual structure of God's church.

Example would be T. W. Barnes. I think he was a prophet but he didn't hold any organizational office.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by cneasttx

Eph. 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers.

I don't see elder or elders in the scripture.

1 Peter 5:1-3

5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
KJV





James 5:14

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the ELDERS of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
KJV





Titus 1:5

5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain ELDERS in every city, as I had appointed thee:
KJV

Acts 20:17

17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the ELDERS of the church.
KJV

Acts 14:23

23 And when they had ordained them ELDERS in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.
KJV

[Rev]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

1 Peter 5:1-3

5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
KJV




James 5:14

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the ELDERS of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
KJV





Titus 1:5

5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain ELDERS in every city, as I had appointed thee:
KJV

Acts 20:17

17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the ELDERS of the church.
KJV

Acts 14:23

23 And when they had ordained them ELDERS in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.
KJV

That's not the scriptures she was asking about.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Rev

That's not the scriptures she was asking about.

Maybe I misread her post, but them some good scriptures anyways to show the church was runned by elders.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Rev

Since you must go through the cherubim with the flamming sword at the gate of Eden, and through the cherubim on the veil of the tabernacle of Moses, and through the cherubim on the door of Solomon's temple to enter into the presence of God, and since the cherubim are a type of the ministry, and since the ministry is five-fold how could that not be conclusive?

The bible does not expressly say these cherubims represent the five-fold ministry, is how. Conclusive leaces no doubt. And one has to have actual words saying that is what the cherubims mean in order to leave NO doubt.