Agenda Driven or Accepting of Diversity?

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Apprehended,

I happen to agree with you, I believe you post is very insightful of what happens when believers in Jesus Christ fellowship in the areas of agreement.
Honest and open discussion of the areas of disagreement, all the while loving and worshiping together in the unity of the Spirit.

I am considered lib and heretic on this form by most, but I still fellowship with my family, and friends from our UPC days. I have friends that my wife and I "won" to the Lord that are still in the UPC and we fellowship and love them all. I do not have an agenda toward any of them, they are true believers, and they treat us the same. Do they think differently behind the scenes? Who knows? We have great fellowship anyway. JMO

Anyway, I loved your post, blessings to you.

Amen. Glad someone was able to see what I was talking about.

Remembering the Word ask the question, "how can two walk together except they agree," does not imply that they must agree on every single minute item of insignifance. Agenda driven dogmatist use those minute items to divide the body of Christ in the presence of pride.

I visited with and preached for Billy Cole in Thailand when he was there. We had blessed fellowship together for serveral days. I believe it was as much blessed for him as it was for me. We discussed many, many things from the Word which gave me a insight on some of the things that he believed at the time.

While there, we went swimming at his retreat down on the Gulf of Siam. He told me that after being in Thailand for a very long time, he had no fellowship with another Christian of any sort as most of his time was spent in the hinterlands of that country. He had become starved for some sort of fellowship. (Kind of hard to believe since we have so much of it here) Nevertheless, he had become so starved that when he happened upon an old Greek Orthodox priest, he was so happy to at least find someone who believed that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, he fell on that old priests shoulder and wept. I've never forgotten that. The only, absolutely ONLY basis of that fellowship for that brief moment was that they both rejoiced in the knowledge that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Imgagine THAT.

That illustration is far afield from the original thought of this thread, nevertheless it underscores the idea that there are basis on which another christian and yourself, as you noted, can have good fellowship but for the obnoxious personality trait of the dogmatist.

You find dogmatist in every camp. They come in all stripes, shades and sizes. They give no latitude. Little do they understand that we have fellowship with Jesus Christ found in each other. When I see another Christian, I listen for the voice of the Spirit rather than the voice of the person himself. The voice of the Spirit is often...yea, all too often obscured by the voice of the dogmatist who inisist upon his minute point over which he is willing to divide the body of Christ. With that understanding, I was able to have sweet fellowship with Brother Reynolds, the AOG preacher. The fellowship was with Christ IN HIM.

Hard spirits are a source of great grief in the heart of Christ since it is so much the element of pride in that personality. Pride of the agenda driven dogmatist lifts one up just a notch above his bretheren. Often they do not recognize what they are doing. While it is the motivation of the dogmatist to seperate fellowship with his bretheren over the mundane and insignificant, the Spirit of Christ will break fellowship with such arrogance. The dirty little secret is, there is a great cavern of spiritual failures in such a one. If it were possible to pull back the curtain to see behind the veil of that personality, the darkness and horror would be shocking. They are far from living a life of victory in Jesus.

Should I ever see you, Crack I will not seek to have fellowship over some of the DUMB things that you believe, but I will seek to have fellowship with the Spirit of Christ in my brother for whom Christ died, in whom the Spirit of Christ dwells. Having found that, I will scarcely remember those far out things that you believe and we will share the joys of knowing Him and the fellowship of His hope and promise, while you overlook some of the dumb things that I believe. That fellowship in Christ will not be broken by our differences in opinions.

Love you, bro. Crack.

[Raven]

Very well said Apprehended!!! A great deal of wisdom there.
Raven

[Maple Leaf]

Originally Posted by Joseph Miller

I think that inside the apostolic movement, I do have friends who are not apostolic, that one MUST believe the new birth. This "saved at repentance" is a lie that will cost a lot of people for eternity. I just can't fellowship "apostolics" who believe that lie.

I used to think that the 'cons' were the more agenda driven, but after a few months on AFF I think both sides can be agenda driven. It boils down to if you have a christian attitude or not.

If this statement is true: "Pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance, a confessing and forsaking of sins."

On what basis would God consign a believer who has genuinely repented to hell?

Is the repentant believer pardoned and condemned at the same time?


If this definition of repentance is correct: "The word 'repentance' means a change of views and purpose, change of heart, change of mind, change of life, transformation, etc."

Are these changes a work of the flesh or of the Spirit? Does a sinner have the power to transform himself?

Has a person who has experienced such a transformation, who has a changed heart, mind, and life, been born again? If not, what happens when they are born again?

[StillStanding]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

Amen. Glad someone was able to see what I was talking about.

Remembering the Word ask the question, "how can two walk together except they agree," does not imply that they must agree on every single minute item of insignifance. Agenda driven dogmatist use those minute items to divide the body of Christ in the presence of pride.

I visited with and preached for Billy Cole in Thailand when he was there. We had blessed fellowship together for serveral days. I believe it was as much blessed for him as it was for me. We discussed many, many things from the Word which gave me a insight on some of the things that he believed at the time.

While there, we went swimming at his retreat down on the Gulf of Siam. He told me that after being in Thailand for a very long time, he had no fellowship with another Christian of any sort as most of his time was spent in the hinterlands of that country. He had become starved for some sort of fellowship. (Kind of hard to believe since we have so much of it here) Nevertheless, he had become so starved that when he happened upon an old Greek Orthodox priest, he was so happy to at least find someone who believed that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, he fell on that old priests shoulder and wept. I've never forgotten that. The only, absolutely ONLY basis of that fellowship for that brief moment was that they both rejoiced in the knowledge that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Imgagine THAT.

That illustration is far afield from the original thought of this thread, nevertheless it underscores the idea that there are basis on which another christian and yourself, as you noted, can have good fellowship but for the obnoxious personality trait of the dogmatist.

You find dogmatist in every camp. They come in all stripes, shades and sizes. They give no latitude. Little do they understand that we have fellowship with Jesus Christ found in each other. When I see another Christian, I listen for the voice of the Spirit rather than the voice of the person himself. The voice of the Spirit is often...yea, all too often obscured by the voice of the dogmatist who inisist upon his minute point over which he is willing to divide the body of Christ. With that understanding, I was able to have sweet fellowship with Brother Reynolds, the AOG preacher. The fellowship was with Christ IN HIM.

Hard spirits are a source of great grief in the heart of Christ since it is so much the element of pride in that personality. Pride of the agenda driven dogmatist lifts one up just a notch above his bretheren. Often they do not recognize what they are doing. While it is the motivation of the dogmatist to seperate fellowship with his bretheren over the mundane and insignificant, the Spirit of Christ will break fellowship with such arrogance. The dirty little secret is, there is a great cavern of spiritual failures in such a one. If it were possible to pull back the curtain to see behind the veil of that personality, the darkness and horror would be shocking. They are far from living a life of victory in Jesus.

Should I ever see you, Crack I will not seek to have fellowship over some of the DUMB things that you believe, but I will seek to have fellowship with the Spirit of Christ in my brother for whom Christ died, in whom the Spirit of Christ dwells. Having found that, I will scarcely remember those far out things that you believe and we will share the joys of knowing Him and the fellowship of His hope and promise, while you overlook some of the dumb things that I believe. That fellowship in Christ will not be broken by our differences in opinions.

Love you, bro. Crack.

This ia a great post!

You have put into words exactly why I like to fellowship with folks from my Apostolic roots.

I have a significant investment in time and experience worshiping in a conservative UPCI church. I have many positive experiences with sincere godly saints and preachers over the years.

I hope it doesn't come across that I have an agenda! I just simply like to fellowship with folks that I think I understand completely.

I know that I will not ever be accepted as I am because of changes of some beliefs, but the fellowship is something that is kind of nice for the moment.

[Apprehended]

Thank you Raven and PM...

I was beginning to worry that I was not understood since there was no response to no. 99 at all. Most posters were itching to take up the "ring" debate. haha Don't you just love to see all of these out of breath messengers with no message?

I have meditated on the Word so much of my life in regards to this and I have come to a conclusion which I believe is correct. Far too many of us, especially the hard core, are not willing to confess the far reaching and expanse of the cross of Jesus. It is true that there are those that are so far out there that I doubt that I could find much basis of fellowship. That might include those that preach OSAS who allow all sort of sin, excusing it as something that no one can rise above. But my bible tells me that sin will never enter heaven. I will not fellowship sin. Then, there are those that are soooooo conservative, up tight super holiness that it is hard to find sweet fellowship with because before long, after they examine me enough, they will not see Jesus in me...only seeing something in me that they disapprove of giving them occasion to break fellowship. It is not that I will not fellowship them and would be glad too, but the presence of pride in them, the little arrogance, prevents. This is sad. In a spiritual sense, there seems to be no compunction to amputate the body of Christ...as greivous as it is, preferring to content for their little handful sand above the riches of golden Christ-centered fellowship.

Once, through a mutual friend I was invited to preach in a Trinity church in Dallas, Texas. It was a nice size church. The Pastor said for me to "take your liberty." I thought to myself, "Ol' boy you just don't know that you gave me unrestricted license." I preached ONE GOD as hard and persuasively as I could, using every one God scripture in the book. Those people must have misunderstood me. They jumped and shouted "amen," carrying on just like they believed every word. I thought that there has to be something wrong...aren't these folks Trinity? In the end, I finally decided they did not any more understand Trinity than I understand nuclear science. They just loved the Word of God. They simply fellowshipped the Word of God and the presence of God that was in our midst. Later the Pastor said to me when we went out to eat, "You are a Oneness preacher, aren't you?" I said, "Yes sir. I just hope that I didn't offened anyone." He said, "As long as you stay in the Word as you did, you are not going to offend anyone. We all enjoyed it." That remark greatly uplifed my spirit. Would to God we all had that attitude.

Alas, the agenda driven personality will always find some fault with all who do not take up their agenda to become one mind and one accord in their accumulation of dust and sand.

[mizpeh]

Apprehended,

I've enjoyed and been blessed by reading your last three posts and your attitude to those who don't have the full 'light'. I'm sure there are many others who agree with you but haven't taken the time to write a response.

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Apprehended,

I've enjoyed and been blessed by reading your last three posts and your attitude to those who don't have the full 'light'. I'm sure there are many others who agree with you but haven't taken the time to write a response.

Thank you, sir.

Just for the record; there is no difference in my doctrinal stance than the most adamant three stepper is that I am firm believer that God forgives sin of all...ALL, absolutely ALL who come to him without qualifications even if they have NEVER been baptized. I am a firm believer that Jesus turns NONE away who come to him in faith asking, confessing and believing, being the only qualifications.

The blood of Jesus is too strong, too sure, too far reaching and Jesus is too gracious, full of grace and mercy for me to believe otherwise. The possibility of me EVER believing otherwise is not in my spirit.

But, I am sure that there are some who would break fellowship with me on that basis alone, but I would not. I am convinced that if we could ever get a fresh revelation of the glory, power and majesty of the cross, these differences would disolve into nothingness.

There is no limit to how effectively we can divide up the body of Christ with our differences. I might call one a heretic and full of the spirit of error because one believes in a different interpretation of Revelation. Another might call me a heretic and break fellowship for the same reason or because I wear a gold colored watch. I know of a case where a couple of churches broke fellowship with the fellowship circle that they were in because the rest of them did not baptize in live streams.

It is so sad to see so many willing to break fellowship over resolution 4.... I wonder if they really understand the extent of the crime of dividing up the body of Christ? Is it not a testimony of the waining fires of love and the diminishing of light? If our walking together depended on agreeing with every single thing, I am afraid that we would walk alone. Where there is the absence of pride and the presence of humility of mind and spirit, there is no problem of walking together on the basis of the many things that we DO agree on...hence, the body of Christ is joined and strengthened.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

It is so sad to see so many willing to break fellowship over resolution 4.... I wonder if they really understand the extent of the crime of dividing up the body of Christ? Is it not a testimony of the waining fires of love and the diminishing of light? If our walking together depended on agreeing with every single thing, I am afraid that we would walk alone. Where there is the absence of pride and the presence of humility of mind and spirit, there is no problem of walking together on the basis of the many things that we DO agree on...hence, the body of Christ is joined and strengthened.

I would agree with you that Jesus accepts everyone who comes to him in faith and repentance. I differ with you on when forgiveness of sins occur and what the new birth is BUT I am able to walk together with you on the basis of the many things we do agree on. I believe this common ground was the basis of the merger of the PAJC and PCI into the UPC years ago.

Paul said he could put up with those who did not believe exactly as he did Romans 14 until those folks became intolerant (forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats), and departed from the faith, then he warned Timothy of them. 1 Tim 4:1-5 Even in the early days of the church there were some that withdrew themselves from the body. There is nothing new under the sun.

BTW, I'm a sister!

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I would agree with you that Jesus accepts everyone who comes to him in faith and repentance. I differ with you on when forgiveness of sins occur and what the new birth is BUT I am able to walk together with you on the basis of the many things we do agree on. I believe this common ground was the basis of the merger of the PAJC and PCI into the UPC years ago.

Paul said he could put up with those who did not believe exactly as he did Romans 14 until those folks became intolerant (forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats), and departed from the faith, then he warned Timothy of them. 1 Tim 4:1-5 Even in the early days of the church there were some that withdrew themselves from the body. There is nothing new under the sun.

BTW, I'm a sister!

Sister?

Of course. I knew that. Sorry.

The only difference in the PCI stance and that of my own, which may be somewhere between the PCI's and the that of the PAJC is that I do not believe anyone can be saved "to eternity" without obeying the whole Gospel including Baptism in the name of Jesus and receiving the Holy Ghost when they have the light on it. The PCI stance is that they could be saved to eternity short of it even if they DO have the light of it.

I know, I know this slight difference causes me to be misunderstood by both the PCI leaning group and the PAJC leaning group too. It is my position and understanding of the Word of God that give me peace of mind concerning the many martyrs that died trusting in and loving Jesus, never having denied their faith in him.

The other day, I told of a true story about some martyrs in Russia. It was discredited as an urban myth. So, I got down my Fox Book of Martyrs and begun reading. I was so moved as I read the most heart breaking stories of faithful men and women who gave up their lives for the love of Jesus that was deep in their heart. Again, I was moved to tears as I examined my ownself questioning if I could stand up under the same tortune and death. I wept as I told the Lord that it was my intentions to have the same resolve as His love abides in me as deeply as it did in them.

But, in it all, "Sirs, we would see Jesus." Sister, I only want to see Jesus in you.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

Sister?

Of course. I knew that. Sorry.

The only difference in the PCI stance and that of my own, which may be somewhere between the PCI's and the that of the PAJC is that I do not believe anyone can be saved "to eternity" without obeying the whole Gospel including Baptism in the name of Jesus and receiving the Holy Ghost when they have the light on it. The PCI stance is that they could be saved to eternity short of it even if they DO have the light of it.
I know, I know this slight difference causes me to be misunderstood by both the PCI leaning group and the PAJC leaning group too. It is my position and understanding of the Word of God that give me peace of mind concerning the many martyrs that died trusting in and loving Jesus, never having denied their faith in him.

The other day, I told of a true story about some martyrs in Russia. It was discredited as an urban myth. So, I got down my Fox Book of Martyrs and begun reading. I was so moved as I read the most heart breaking stories of faithful men and women who gave up their lives for the love of Jesus that was deep in their heart. Again, I was moved to tears as I examined my ownself questioning if I could stand up under the same tortune and death. I wept as I told the Lord that it was my intentions to have the same resolve as His love abides in me as deeply as it did in them.

But, in it all, "Sirs, we would see Jesus." Sister, I only want to see Jesus in you.

It saddens me that you have either hidden this view from me for a long time, or changed to this view in the last little while. IF one can be saved "to eternity" without baptism in Jesus Name if they never hear of it, it would behove us not to preach it ever again to ANY group that does not believe it that way, as by doing so we doom them that do not accept it to hell.

IF Jesus Name baptism is not necessary for salvation "to eternity" for the unknowing person (even though God no longer winks at ignorance) then it is not necessary for anyone. Either the plan of salvation is firm and solid (a clear note) or we need to stop preaching it as truth.