1> Did the Tulsa 6 have a right to start WPF ?

[tv1a]

1. It's hard to respect people riddled with inconsistency.
2. God didn't call this bunch to form a new group. Ego, pride and self centeredness were the motivation.
3. Parallels between racism and the wpf are so obvious, but it is a touchy subject.
4. I've seen saints with the same attitude and spirit. Definitely not a spirit of God.

Originally Posted by Dan'D

Did we not see this coming. In the last few years you have seen more UPC churches go Independent because of standards.

The church I was raised in was UPC but the pastor was prepared in case he felt the UPC was going the wrong direction they would pull out.

No one can deny that UPC as a general has been going more and more liberal. Regardless of your personal feeling there are a lot of pastor and ministers that feel over the years the UPC left them. A lot of things are being allowed in some churches that no one would ever believe 10 – 15 years ago.

For most, being an independent church has so many problems not being in an organization. There people has no connection between other churches for large meetings, Camp Meeting, Youth Camp and general fellowship etc.

Did the Tulsa group have the right way to pull out and start another organization / Fellowship. No mater how they would go about it, they would had been criticized. It took a number of men who people highly respected to start the new fellowship. Not just respected in there own area but thru out UPC. They knew that there would be people calling them names and criticized them for what they did. Yet they did it anyway. I can not answer for all the men but the ones I know did not do it personal reasons.

This has been in the planning stages for a very some time and weather or not, NW won an election in California would not have any effect on the decision on starting the WPF.
Since they disagree with the direction UPC is going at what point do they say enough is enough. Which was where the Resolution on TV comes in. An then have enough support of pastors and ministers to do something of this magnitude.

The Tulsa 6 I’m sure was in contact with 100’s maybe 1000’s of pastor before they started WPF. If you feel they should not had contacted the other UPC ministers. Don’t we have freedom of speech within the ranks of UPC if you feel something is wrong.

Remember since this group of pastors are so well know I’m sure most if not all of the contacted pastors and minister were on first name basics.

Bro Haney does not answer to God for me, My pastor will have to. Bro. Haney was voted in to run an organization not run the church I attend. If my pastor did not do what he felt God was directing him to do, he would be derelict of his calling and again he would answer to God for that.

Whether you agree or disagree

I believe the so called Tulsa 6 felt God was directing them this way for some time. Who are we to tell them God was not directing them.


Questions:

1> Did the Tulsa 6 have a right to start WPF ?
2> How should they had done it?

[Dan'D]

Originally Posted by tv1a

1. It's hard to respect people riddled with inconsistency.
2. God didn't call this bunch to form a new group. were the motivation.
3. Parallels between racism and the wpf are so obvious, but it is a touchy subject.
4. I've seen saints with the same attitude and spirit. Definitely not a spirit of God.

Did God tell he did not lead these men to do this.

If he did not then Ego, pride and self centeredness has come into play

Dan'D

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by Dan'D

Did God tell he did not lead these men to do this.

If he did not then Ego, pride and self centeredness has come into play

Dan'D

Dan'D, could you please visit the thread I started in your name? I asked a couple of questions that I would really love your input on.

[lilanastasia]

Originally Posted by tv1a

1. It's hard to respect people riddled with inconsistency.
2. God didn't call this bunch to form a new group. Ego, pride and self centeredness were the motivation.
3. Parallels between racism and the wpf are so obvious, but it is a touchy subject.
4. I've seen saints with the same attitude and spirit. Definitely not a spirit of God.

I agree 100%; however, this is my first huge transition that has affected the UPCI. I wasn't in church when ALJC or PAW separated, or even alive for that matter.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by lilanastasia

I agree 100%; however, this is my first huge transition that has affected the UPCI. I wasn't in church when ALJC or PAW separated, or even alive for that matter.

What do you mean by PAW seperated?

[lilanastasia]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

What do you mean by PAW seperated?

When the ALJC was created...when the PAW was created.

[StMark]

PAW was founded in 1913. After Azusa died down, the races all went their own way.
the upc was formed in 1945

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by lilanastasia

When the ALJC was created...when the PAW was created.

PAW was the first oneness org that was made of both wihte and black. Many Whtes had issues with it due to eventual mixed marriages and later went on to part of the forming of the UPC. White elders didn't want their licenses signed by black bishops.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

PAW was the first oneness org that was made of both wihte and black. Many Whtes had issues with it due to eventual mixed marriages and later went on to part of the forming of the UPC. White elders didn't want their licenses signed by black bishops.

The only real documented problems involved the scheduling of conferences in the South. The old Jim Crow laws prohibited black ministers from staying at "whites only" hotels.

There were no doubt other issues on the minds of different individuals, but the real pressure to seperate along color lines really came from outside of the Pentecostal movement. When they did seperate, it was generally seen as a victory for "outside" forces and was a disappointment to those within the movement.

Most of the "anti-inter-racial marriage" sentiments came along later; about the same time that other new ideas were being introduced.

[tv1a]

Back to the original question.

The tulsa six has the right to tango in whatever manner they decide. The rest of us have the right to our own opinions based on the information provided.

If these men were members of a congregation who initiated a church split, we would be all over them as agents of satan. Since they are preachers, they get a free pass when they cause division and discord. The same devils used to call dissention and discord in local church splits are the same devils used to cause a rift in the organization. Scripture has plenty to say about their attitudes. None of it good...