Universal Health Care

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by Ron

And Bro you ain't hearing me!
I am against Taxation-period.

That being said, if they are going to tax us, why not put it to good use.
We pay for police protection, fire protection, education, defense, etc;

Making sure that everyone has food, clothing, shelter, & medical care & an affordable price.

If you have issue with Health, you should have issue with the rest of your Taxes!

I am saying we should make sure that there is no lack for food, housing, or medical care, at least in North America.
Do you have a problem with that?

I have a huge problem with the rest of my taxes. The only Biblical reason I see for taxation at all(and I'm open for correction on this) is for defense, justice, and the prevention of fraud.
That would REALLY cut our federal government way down.

[OP_Carl]

Originally Posted by Ron

It is a terrible thing when people need health care!
Cancer, Heart Disease, not my problem!

It is clear to see who would walk to the other side of the road when the man taken among thieves was in need of a good Samaritan!

May I summarize your argument?

"You're a doody-head!

It really isn't that hard of a principle to understand. A government that disregards the interests of the individual over the interests of the group when it comes to the collection of funds is ALSO going to disregard the interests of the individual over the interests of the group when it comes to the PAYOUT OF BENEFITS. It's a systemic disregard and sense of superiority, not a localized incident.

[OP_Carl]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

I have a huge problem with the rest of my taxes. The only Biblical reason I see for taxation at all(and I'm open for correction on this) is for defense, justice, and the prevention of fraud.
That would REALLY cut our federal government way down.

The original mission of the federal government was to defend the coasts and provide a common currency. No standing army was allowed.

Interstate commerce clause, you've come a long way, baby!

[trickledown]

Originally Posted by Ron

Dave, you confuse Truth with Fiction!
You don't live in Canada, you don't know how the system works.

If you equate stealing with helping a fellow human being get health care, [SIZE="7"]than you can not support someone who doesn't have enough to eat.[/SIZE]
Your taxes do that, it also helps to protect the just A& the unjust through the same system.

That's right-rains on the just & unjust, blessings befall the just & the unjust.


I am just thankful to God that the majority of Americans are waking up!

I WOULD DEBATE THAT THE MAJORITY IS NOT IN FAVOR OF A SYSTEM LIKE YOURS OR FRANCES. AND NOW YOU HAVE ADDED WETHER OR NOT WE BELIEVE THAT ALL PEOPLE HAVE A RIGHT TO EAT. SCRIPTURE MAY BE SILENT ABOUT UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE BUT IT DOES SPEAK TO FOOD.
2 Thessalonians 3:10 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

10For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

THIS IS A WAKE UP TO EVERYONE READING THIS POST. THE SAME PEOPLE THAT THINK ALL SHOULD HAVE HEALTHCARE REGARDLESS OF ANY OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES WILL ALSO SOON ASK YOU TO FEED ALL REGARDLESS OF ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. THEIR IDEAS DO NOT FLY IN THE LIGHT OF SCRIPTURE. THE IDEAS THAT WERE PERPETUATED BY MARXIST ARE NOT CONGRUENT WITH THE IDEAS OF CHRIST.

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

CH, I think what most small government types like me object to is not that someone may or may not get the medication they need,

Dave, that doesn't make much sense. Because right now in America there are tens of thousands of elderly people barely able to buy food because they cannot afford the prescription drugs they need. Every year an estimated 18,000 Americans die because they are not granted coverage or cannot afford insurance that will help them get the care or treatments they need to survive. Bro, numbers of cases have been brought up before the Senate and have engaged the insurance companies in lawsuits because their loved one died. There are another 25,000 Americans who declare bankruptcy every year due to the inability to pay their medical bills.

Funny...none of this seems to bother you one bit. I'll tell you what it's really about...it's about the almighty dollar.

I object that the government has the right to steal from me to give to them.

The Law of God commanded land owners to leave the corners and edges of their fields for the destitute. It was a civil law of Moses. If this is theft, Jesus is a sinner...because Jesus and the disciples freely gleaned corn, with unwashed hands, in a field belonging to another. If Jesus is a sinner, your faith is in vain.

Also let's read what Paul said in Romans 13,

" 1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor." - Romans 13:1-7 (NIV)

In this passage we have a number of truths. First, Government, like the family, is an ordained institution of God. And, Governments are established and set up by God. If one rebels against the rule of law they are in rebellion against the governing institution appointed by God bringing judgment upon themselves. One need no fear of rulers if they obey the laws. The governing authorities will commend those who do what's right and obey the laws. Governing authorities are servants called to do good for the people. But law breakers have reason to fear because governing authorities have the authority to use force, the sword, to punish them. Governments serve God by punishing law breakers. Therefore it is necessary to obey the government, not only because you may be punished but because in doing so you will have a clear conscience. HEY, this is why you are to pay taxes. Because the governing authorities are the servants of God and give their lives to public service. You are to give what you owe. If you owe taxes, pay taxes. If revenue, pay revenue. If respect, then respect. If honor, then honor.

Those who serve in the public service of government are servants, ministers, of God. There called to do the people good and punish law breakers. Paying taxes to assist them with doing the people good and punishing law breakers is commanded in Scripture.

If a governing official sees tens of thousands of elderly folk struggling to survive because of medical costs, if they see 18,000 dying a year because they need coverage for life saving treatments, and if a governing official sees 25,000 people loosing everything they ever worked for due to an illness, they are called to "do you good". They have the God given burden of resolving the issue and minimizing the damage done.

The Republicans wanted to slash necessary funds for SCHIP which insures many children who need medical care. The Republicans slash and hack Medicare, which serves the elderly. Here is a dire warning for those who commit acts of abuse and injustice or even tolerates such things toward children...

"10Beware that you do not despise or feel scornful toward or think little of one of these little ones, for I tell you that in heaven their angels always are in the presence of and look upon the face of My Father Who is in heaven." - Matthew 18:10 (AMP)

And when it comes to helping the elderly,

"Honour thy father and thy mother:" - Exodus 20:12 (KJV)

Part of your harvest belongs to those in need,

Leviticus 23:22
And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the LORD your God.

Charity is wonderful. It fulfills an immediate need. However, government often has to intervene to insure social justice toward those needy classes. Rather it be government or charity God's word commands,

Deuteronomy 15:7
If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:

But some argue, "BUT IT IS NOT THE ROLE OF GOVERNMENT!" Oh, will you war against the Word of God oh mighty man? For behold the calling of a godly magistrate:

Psalm 72:1-20
1Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king's son.
2He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.
3The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness.
4He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.
5They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.
6He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth.
7In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.
8He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.
9They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust.
10The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.
11Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.
12For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper.
13He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy.
14He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight.
15And he shall live, and to him shall be given of the gold of Sheba: prayer also shall be made for him continually; and daily shall he be praised.
16There shall be an handful of corn in the earth upon the top of the mountains; the fruit thereof shall shake like Lebanon: and they of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth.
17His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
18Blessed be the LORD God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things.
19And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen.
20The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended."

It is the magistrate's role to look after these needy classes. This is why leaders who seek to relieve the poor and needy among men are often the most revered down through history. It's a promise of God, Psalm 72:17. And the magistrate should always keep in mind God's intention regarding social justice toward the poor,

Deuteronomy 15:4 (AMP)
However, there will be no poor among you, since the LORD will surely bless you in the land which the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance to possess,

Deuteronomy 15:11
For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.

There are more ways to give and show grace than to break the 8th commandment to do it. Obviously the vast majority thinks of the government as the messiah and has allowed the government to overstep it's God given bounds. We have fed the beast.

Isaiah 32:7 (Amplified Bible)
The instruments and methods of the fraudulent and greedy [for gain] are evil; he devises wicked devices to ruin the poor and the lowly with lying words, even when the plea of the needy is just and right.

The Word of the Lord.

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

I have a huge problem with the rest of my taxes. The only Biblical reason I see for taxation at all(and I'm open for correction on this) is for defense, justice, and the prevention of fraud.
That would REALLY cut our federal government way down.

A biblical definition of justice is in order,

Holman Bible Dictionary

JUSTICE
http://www.studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?number=T3548

The order God seeks to reestablish in His creation where all people receive the benefits of life with Him. As love is for the New Testament, so justice is the central ethical idea of the Old Testament. The frequency of justice is sometimes missed by the reader due to a failure to realize that the wide range of the Hebrew word mishpat, particularly in passages that deal with the material and social necessities of life.

Nature of justice Justice has two major aspects. First, it is the standard by which penalties are assigned for breaking the obligations of the society. Second, justice is the standard by which the advantages of social life are handed out, including material goods, rights of participation, opportunities, and liberties. It is the standard for both punishment and benefits and thus can be spoken of as a plumb line. “I shall use justice as a plumb-line, and righteousness as a plummet” (Isaiah 28:17, REB).

Often people think of justice in the Bible only in the first sense as God's wrath on evil. This aspect of justice indeed is present, such as the judgment mentioned in John 3:19. Often more vivid words like “wrath” are used to describe punitive justice (Romans 1:18).

Justice in the Bible very frequently also deals with benefits. Cultures differ widely in determining the basis by which the benefits are to be justly distributed. For some it is by birth and nobility. For others the basis is might or ability or merit. Or it might simply be whatever is the law or whatever has been established by contracts. The Bible takes another possibility. Benefits are distributed according to need. Justice then is very close to love and grace. God “executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and… loves the strangers, providing them food and clothing” (Deuteronomy 10:18, NRSV; compare Hosea 10:12; Isaiah 30:18).

Various needy groups are the recipients of justice. These groups include widows, orphans, resident aliens (also called “sojourners” or “strangers”), wage earners, the poor, and prisoners, slaves, and the sick (Job 29:12-17; Psalms 146:7-9; Malachi 3:5). Each of these groups has specific needs which keep its members from being able to participate in aspects of the life of their community. Even life itself might be threatened. Justice involves meeting those needs. The forces which deprive people of what is basic for community life are condemned as oppression (Micah 2:2; Ecclesiastes 4:1). To oppress is to use power for one's own advantage in depriving others of their basic rights in the community (see Mark 12:40). To do justice is to correct that abuse and to meet those needs (Isaiah 1:17). Injustice is depriving others of their basic needs or failing to correct matters when those rights are not met (Jeremiah 5:28; Job 29:12-17). Injustice is either a sin of commission or of omission.

The content of justice, the benefits which are to be distributed as basic rights in the community, can be identified by observing what is at stake in the passages in which “justice,” “righteousness,” and “judgment” occur. The needs which are met include land (Ezekiel 45:6-9; compare Micah 2:2; Micah 4:4) and the means to produce from the land, such as draft animals and millstones (Deuteronomy 22:1-4; Deuteronomy 24:6). These productive concerns are basic to securing other essential needs and thus avoiding dependency; thus the millstone is called the “life” of the person (Deuteronomy 24:6). Other needs are those essential for mere physical existence and well being: food (Deuteronomy 10:18; Psalms 146:7), clothing (Deuteronomy 24:13), and shelter (Psalms 68:6; Job 8:6). Job 22:5-9,Job 22:23; Job 24:1-12 decries the injustice of depriving people of each one of these needs, which are material and economic. The equal protection of each person in civil and judicial procedures is represented in the demand for due process (Deuteronomy 16:18-20). Freedom from bondage is comparable to not being “in hunger and thirst, in nakedness and lack of everything” (Deuteronomy 28:48 NRSV).

Justice presupposes God's intention for people to be in community. When people had become poor and weak with respect to the rest of the community, they were to be strengthened so that they could continue to be effective members of the community—living with them and beside them (Leviticus 25:35-36). Thus biblical justice restores people to community. By justice those who lacked the power and resources to participate in significant aspects of the community were to be strengthened so that they could. This concern in Leviticus 25:1 is illustrated by the provision of the year of Jubilee, in which at the end of the fifty year period land is restored to those who had lost it through sale or foreclosure of debts (Leviticus 25:28). Thus they regained economic power and were brought back into the economic community. Similarly, interest on loans was prohibited (Leviticus 25:36) as a process which pulled people down, endangering their position in the community.

These legal provisions express a further characteristic of justice. Justice delivers; it does not merely relieve the immediate needs of those in dire straits (Psalms 76:9; Isaiah 45:8; Isaiah 58:11; Isaiah 62:1-2). Helping the needy means setting them back on their feet, giving a home, leading to prosperity, restoration, ending the oppression (Psalms 68:5-10; Psalms 10:15-16; compare 107; Psalms 113:7-9). Such thorough justice can be socially disruptive. In the Jubilee year as some receive back lands, others lose recently-acquired additional land. The advantage to some is a disadvantage to others. In some cases the two aspects of justice come together. In the act of restoration, those who were victims of justice receive benefits while their exploiters are punished (1 Samuel 2:7-10; compare Luke 1:51-53; Luke 6:20-26).

The source of justice As the sovereign Creator of the universe, God is just (Psalms 99:1-4; Genesis 18:25; Deuteronomy 32:4; Jeremiah 9:24), particularly as the defender of all the oppressed of the earth (Psalms 76:9; Psalms 103:6; Jeremiah 49:11). Justice thus is universal (Psalms 9:7-9) and applies to each covenant or dispensation. Jesus affirmed for His day the centrality of the Old Testament demand for justice (Matthew 23:23). Justice is the work of the New Testament people of God (James 1:27).

God's justice is not a distant external standard. It is the source of all human justice (Proverbs 29:26; 2 Chronicles 19:6,2 Chronicles 19:9). Justice is grace received and grace shared (2 Corinthians 9:8-10).

The most prominent human agent of justice is the ruler. The king receives God's justice and is a channel for it (Psalms 72:1; compare Romans 13:1-2,Romans 13:4). There is not a distinction between a personal, voluntary justice and a legal, public justice. The same caring for the needy groups of the society is demanded of the ruler (Psalms 72:4; Ezekiel 34:4; Jeremiah 22:15-16). Such justice was also required of pagan rulers (Daniel 4:27; Proverbs 31:8-9).

Justice is also a central demand on all people who bear the name of God. Its claim is so basic that without it other central demands and provisions of God are not acceptable to God. Justice is required to be present with the sacrificial system (Amos 5:21-24; Micah 6:6-8; Isaiah 1:11-17; Matthew 5:23-24), fasting (Isaiah 58:1-10), tithing (Matthew 23:23), obedience to the other commandments (Matthew 19:16-21), or the presence of the Temple of God (Jeremiah 7:1-7).

Justice in salvation Apart from describing God's condemnation of sin, Paul used the language and meaning of justice to speak of personal salvation. “The righteousness of God” represents God in grace bringing into the community of God through faith in Christ those who had been outside of the people of God (particularly in Romans but compare also Ephesians 2:12-13). See Law; Government; Poverty; Righteousness; Welfare.

Stephen Charles Mott

Dave, it's obvious you and many others have a limited understanding of biblical justice. That's understandable though, because most political conservatives ignore this teaching of the Bible. As a matter of fact they would love to cut it out of the Bible. But God won't let them and is calling a new generation of Christian to confront this Social Darwinism of the Conservative Movement. The churlish teachings of the modern conservative are doomed to fall to the power of God's Holy Word. We stand as a new generation of reformers...standing in opposition to the Right Wing's greed, extortion, and religious pomp and power.

[trickledown]

Originally Posted by trickledown

I WOULD DEBATE THAT THE MAJORITY IS NOT IN FAVOR OF A SYSTEM LIKE YOURS OR FRANCES. AND NOW YOU HAVE ADDED WETHER OR NOT WE BELIEVE THAT ALL PEOPLE HAVE A RIGHT TO EAT. SCRIPTURE MAY BE SILENT ABOUT UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE BUT IT DOES SPEAK TO FOOD.
2 Thessalonians 3:10 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

10For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

THIS IS A WAKE UP TO EVERYONE READING THIS THREAD. THE SAME PEOPLE THAT THINK ALL SHOULD HAVE HEALTHCARE REGARDLESS OF ANY OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES WILL ALSO SOON ASK YOU TO FEED ALL REGARDLESS OF ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. THEIR IDEAS DO NOT FLY IN THE LIGHT OF SCRIPTURE. THE IDEAS THAT WERE PERPETUATED BY MARXIST ARE NOT CONGRUENT WITH THE IDEAS OF CHRIST.

see: ABOVE 2 POST

[ChristopherHall]

One cannot be both Christian and a Social Darwinist Trickeldown.

[trickledown]

In light of some members interpretation of scripture, I really fear for the apostles who defied their governments and for the many believers who in rebellion to governmental authority secretly meet around this globe. In particular there is a missionary friend and role model who has so blatantly defied scriptural submission to government that I fear he must be given over to a reprobate mind.

Today I have learned that certain pentecostal government "servants" are actually God's version of "Minister Robinhoods" and I stand in awe that there is certainly more to the mental deprevity of some "christian socialist" than I could ever expect.

People always seem to put a high minded and righteous spin on their visions.

May there still be a vision for smaller less intrusive government.
The "change" and "hope" that I fear are coming this fall may do untold damage to this great nation that I love. I would die for this country to save it from those who would attack it. If needful, we must fight just as surely against those who have a distorted mindset that would destroy her from within.

We must not willingly sacrifice any Liberty that we now enjoy for a little security.
Or as Ben Franklin said we "deserve neither."

For us as US citizens, we have enjoyed the highest level of sustained healthcare advancement in the modern world. We must not let those who feel they have been ill-served use any means, wether misrepresentation of scripture, federal judiciary, erroneous statistics, or any other form of "bleeding heart liberalism" to persuade us to abandon the free market that our country gave us for a federal (anti)solution.

Detractors of our current model choose not to offer plausible solutions, but instead they advocate for more government involvement.
They use blatantly biased (dis)information from agenda driven organizations to sell the people of this great nation on more terrible government intervention.

Please know that the road to the great society was paved with promises that our generation cannot pay. If we decide to take it farther, this nation will be choked to death. You and I along with it. In less than 35 years there will be one person depending on government help and support from medicare and social security for every two people that are working.

WE don't need more government intervention in our lives.

[trickledown]

This is about as convolluted as the rest of your ideas and does not apply to mine.


Social Darwinism

Social Darwinism is a theory that competition between all individuals, groups, nations or ideas drives social evolution in human societies. The term is an extension of Charles Darwin's theory of evolution, where competition between individual organisms drives biological evolutionary change (speciation) through the survival of the fittest.

The term was popularized in 1944 by the American historian Richard Hofstadter, and has generally been used by critics rather than advocates of what the term is supposed to represent.[1]

While the term has been applied to the claim that Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection can be used to understand the social endurance of a nation or country, social Darwinism commonly refers to ideas that predate Darwin's publication of On the Origin of Species. Others whose ideas are given the label include the 18th century clergyman Thomas Malthus, and Darwin's cousin Francis Galton who founded eugenics towards the end of the 19th century.

Some claim that it supports racism on the lines set out by Arthur de Gobineau before Darwin published his theories, which directly contradict Darwin's own work. This classification of social Darwinism constitutes part of the reaction against the Nazi regime and the Holocaust.