Quote:
Originally Posted by Joelel
Yes a person must have faith and or believe first,if they don't they sure woun't get baptized and get filled with the Spirit.The truth is there is a process of salvation that takes place.Jesus said you must be born again of water and Spirit.You guys gut totally ignor other scripture.
John.3
[3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[4] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
He saved us by what ?
Tit.3
[5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
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You know full well that water or washing does not exclusively mean water baptism in Scripture ... It is you that ignores ... as you ignore that water baptism is NOT DIRECTLY REFERENCED IN BOTH OF THE SCRIPTURES YOU QUOTED. It's more theological and verbal acrobatics.
Unfortunately, when my 3 step brethren see as much as a puddle in the word of God .. they equate it to the biblical ordinance of water baptism.
Being born from above [gennatha anothen], as found in John, is exactly that ... a work which rests entirely on the Holy Spirit through placing our trust in the Son of God.
Our warrior friend Adino said it best:
I understand the underlying Greek structure of
John 3:5 speaks of a single birth and not two. This single birth is one "of the Spirit." I believe the word "water" in the phrase "born of water" is a spiritual metaphor. By using this metaphor Christ places emphasis on the single new birth "of the Spirit." The author uses this same water/spirit metaphor in chapters 4 (v10-16) and 7 (v37-39). It makes sense we recognize the metaphorical use here.
If we also recognize the word "KAI" has more than one meaning, such as is shown in
1Corinthians 15:24 which states, "Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, KAI (even) the Father," we can see that
John 3:5 is not offering two separate and distinct elements of a single birth but simply an emphasis on the single birth.
John 3:5 can be understood this way, "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water KAI (even) of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
"Born of water even of the Spirit" brings to mind a later usage of this same metaphor in
John 7:37-39 where it is, in fact, parenthetically explained that the metaphor "water" is a reference to the Spirit (vs39 But this spake he of the Spirit...).
That the remainder John chapter 3 jumps directly to further discussion on being born of the Spirit gives added strength to the metaphorical position.
Sacramental re-enactment theologoy often jump to
Titus 3:5 as prooftext ... but sadly isolate this verse ..... not reading the verse in it's proper context and assuming washing must mean water baptism ...
As for the poor exegesis of
Titus 3:
One writer refutes this assertion by stating:
. [N]ot by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. . . (
Titus 3:5)
This verse is sometimes referred to as proof that baptism is the means of regeneration. However, it does not mention baptism, and our discussion of
Hebrews 10:22 will show that the regeneration, the cleansing of the evil conscience, is accomplished by washing, or sprinkling in the blood of Christ.
Revelation 1:5 makes it perfectly clear that the washing from sin is done in the blood of Christ, not in the waters of baptism.
Furthermore, there is good grammatical cause to believe that "washing of regeneration" means "washing which is regeneration." This is argued for by Charles Hodge, who notes that this would be the meaning as a "genitive of apposition," identifying "washing" with "regeneration." Thus Hodge writes, "We are saved by that washing which is regeneration, namely, the renewing of the Holy Ghost." [16]
Titus 3:5 does not actually refer to baptism in water. It refers to washing of regeneration which is done in the blood of Christ which was shed to cleanse us from sin. It cannot be used to prove that baptism in water is necessary for salvation.
Furthermore, even if baptism is not seen as a work of the law, it is a work of righteousness. It is something which we do: therefore it is a work. It is right for us to do: therefore it is a work of righteousness. But this very verse says that it is not by any works of righteousness which we have done that we are saved. Therefore it cannot be by baptism that we are saved [
http://www.rickross.com/reference/icc/ICC122.html#titus3]
I would also simply point out the the surrounding 2 verses 4 and 6 in Titus.
4But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.
The washing and renewal of the Holy Spirit is and simultaneous work ... not sequential ... as evident in verse 6 that states "He poured out on us" ... this is the pouring out promised by the prophet Joel, reaffirmed by John the Baptist [I baptize you w/ water, but he will baptize you w/ the Holy Ghost] and Jesus who offers us living water: Everyone who drinks this ... rivers of living water will flow from within him.
It is mind boggling to hear posters on this board deny those who are filled w/ the Spirit of God ... access to heaven's gate .... or fellowship in the Body of Christ.
1 Corinthians 12:13 states, "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
My bible is clear ... if they show fruit of the Spirit .... THEY ARE HIS AND BORN OF GOD.
And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
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