Barna states that 1/3 of US is Pent./Charis.

[Sam]

This is from a booklet called "The Charismatic Movement, Renewal or Confusion?" which I received from Pastor James Lee Beall quite a while ago ( in the 1960's or maybe in the early 1970's). He was pastor of Bethesda Missionary Temple in Detroit, MI. This church was considered "Latter Rain," "Oneness Pentecostal," or "Apostolic Pentecostal" depending on your viewpoint. In this portion he describes his attitude toward "Charismatics," and tells of being invited to participate in one of their meetings.

Jim Ellis

---------------
Religious Superiority

It is relatively simple to sit back and criticize every and all religious groups. If you want something to offend you, it will be easily found.

When the Lord God first began to pour the Holy Spirit upon segments of the organized church --the Catholics, the Baptists, the Episcopalians, etc., I sat back to criticize. Believe me, I found plenty that I did not consider right or proper.

How superior I felt as I sat in my detached ivory tower pointing out the wrongs committed by others! There is no feeling quite like that which comes with religious superiority. It is like the eye saying to the hand, "I have no need of you."

...It is my personal opinion that the charismatic renewal has brought segments of the religious world to needed areas of maturity. For the first time in years and years, men and women of different persuasions are able to sit down and talk without cutting one another to pieces. We have ceased being afraid of one another.

My First Charismatic Conference.

Some years back I was invited to one of the major U.S. cities to take part in a city-wide charismatic conference. This was the first for me and I wasn't sure that I wanted to go.

I gave the matter some thought and prayer. Inwardly I knew it was the right step for me. I accepted the invitations and left for the meetings.

What I saw in the initial services made me a little uneasy. Hundreds of people were in attendance with clergymen of all backgrounds.

During the course of this dinner-meeting,the religious community was invited to stand and identify themselves. To my surprise, the Roman Catholics --priests and nuns-- were in the majority.

I could not believe they were really interested in knowing about the baptism in the Holy Spirit and what God was doing spiritually all over the world. I had come to believe that Roman Catholics and Episcopalians were such dyed-in-the-wool sacramentalists that personal spiritual experiences were of little or no interest to them. In that meeting, I began to get the sneaky hunch that I might have been wrong.

The day after the initial dinner-meeting we conducted our services in one of the local church buildings. My responsibility was to speak morning and evening.

Following my teaching on the baptism in the Holy Spirit that evening I invited those who were interested to stand and express their interest in this way. About half of that audience responded.

The church sanctuary was completely filled so I asked those seated in the right front section to move toward the rear if they were not interested in further instruction and prayer for the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Finally, we got everyone settled again.

There in the first rows were Roman Catholic priests and nuns, along with other ministers and workers from various churches. I didn't know exactly what I ought to do.

The reason for my quandry was that I knew the Lord had no intention of filling these people with the Holy Spirit. They belonged to the wrong churches and I was not even sure of their salvation. There was no other step to be taken except that of instruction. This I did with the intention of eventually leading them to prayer.

In my prayer I led these seekers to repeat after me. My prayer would be a request for the forgiveness of sins and the confession that we were fully aware that there was one mediator between God and man, the Lord Jesus Christ. I was going to make Protestants out of all these Catholics if I possibly could. After all, this was the only way they could receive something from the Lord.

Mixed Reactions

While I was praying with my eyes closed, my prayer was interrupted. Someone was singing and praising God in another language. In a few minutes, others joined in.

When I opened my eyes to see who it was who was being filled with the Holy Spirit, i was amazed to find the majority of them were obviously Roman Catholics. My reactions were mixed. I was happy for them, while at the same time puzzled. How could this happen? What did it all mean?

The next day the entire scene broke in on me again. All I could say was, "God did it!" I did not lay my hands on them. No one gave them words to say nor did we initiate anything.

God evidently did not care if they were protestants or Catholics and He did not keep the Spirit from them because they wore clerical clothes. The Lord God looked down into the hearts and saw the hunger there. Not a hunger for things, or experiences, or gifts --just a deep and singular hunger and thirst for Him. He mets the hungry and satisfies their mouth with good things. Make no mistake about this.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by Sam

This is from a booklet called "The Charismatic Movement, Renewal or Confusion?" which I received from Pastor James Lee Beall quite a while ago ( in the 1960's or maybe in the early 1970's). He was pastor of Bethesda Missionary Temple in Detroit, MI. This church was considered "Latter Rain," "Oneness Pentecostal," or "Apostolic Pentecostal" depending on your viewpoint. In this portion he describes his attitude toward "Charismatics," and tells of being invited to participate in one of their meetings.

Jim Ellis

---------------
Religious Superiority

It is relatively simple to sit back and criticize every and all religious groups. If you want something to offend you, it will be easily found.

When the Lord God first began to pour the Holy Spirit upon segments of the organized church --the Catholics, the Baptists, the Episcopalians, etc., I sat back to criticize. Believe me, I found plenty that I did not consider right or proper.

How superior I felt as I sat in my detached ivory tower pointing out the wrongs committed by others! There is no feeling quite like that which comes with religious superiority. It is like the eye saying to the hand, "I have no need of you."

...It is my personal opinion that the charismatic renewal has brought segments of the religious world to needed areas of maturity. For the first time in years and years, men and women of different persuasions are able to sit down and talk without cutting one another to pieces. We have ceased being afraid of one another.

My First Charismatic Conference.

Some years back I was invited to one of the major U.S. cities to take part in a city-wide charismatic conference. This was the first for me and I wasn't sure that I wanted to go.

I gave the matter some thought and prayer. Inwardly I knew it was the right step for me. I accepted the invitations and left for the meetings.

What I saw in the initial services made me a little uneasy. Hundreds of people were in attendance with clergymen of all backgrounds.

During the course of this dinner-meeting,the religious community was invited to stand and identify themselves. To my surprise, the Roman Catholics --priests and nuns-- were in the majority.

I could not believe they were really interested in knowing about the baptism in the Holy Spirit and what God was doing spiritually all over the world. I had come to believe that Roman Catholics and Episcopalians were such dyed-in-the-wool sacramentalists that personal spiritual experiences were of little or no interest to them. In that meeting, I began to get the sneaky hunch that I might have been wrong.

The day after the initial dinner-meeting we conducted our services in one of the local church buildings. My responsibility was to speak morning and evening.

Following my teaching on the baptism in the Holy Spirit that evening I invited those who were interested to stand and express their interest in this way. About half of that audience responded.

The church sanctuary was completely filled so I asked those seated in the right front section to move toward the rear if they were not interested in further instruction and prayer for the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Finally, we got everyone settled again.

There in the first rows were Roman Catholic priests and nuns, along with other ministers and workers from various churches. I didn't know exactly what I ought to do.

The reason for my quandry was that I knew the Lord had no intention of filling these people with the Holy Spirit. They belonged to the wrong churches and I was not even sure of their salvation. There was no other step to be taken except that of instruction. This I did with the intention of eventually leading them to prayer.

In my prayer I led these seekers to repeat after me. My prayer would be a request for the forgiveness of sins and the confession that we were fully aware that there was one mediator between God and man, the Lord Jesus Christ. I was going to make Protestants out of all these Catholics if I possibly could. After all, this was the only way they could receive something from the Lord.

Mixed Reactions

While I was praying with my eyes closed, my prayer was interrupted. Someone was singing and praising God in another language. In a few minutes, others joined in.

When I opened my eyes to see who it was who was being filled with the Holy Spirit, i was amazed to find the majority of them were obviously Roman Catholics. My reactions were mixed. I was happy for them, while at the same time puzzled. How could this happen? What did it all mean?

The next day the entire scene broke in on me again. All I could say was, "God did it!" I did not lay my hands on them. No one gave them words to say nor did we initiate anything.

God evidently did not care if they were protestants or Catholics and He did not keep the Spirit from them because they wore clerical clothes. The Lord God looked down into the hearts and saw the hunger there. Not a hunger for things, or experiences, or gifts --just a deep and singular hunger and thirst for Him. He mets the hungry and satisfies their mouth with good things. Make no mistake about this.

This is a beautiful story of God's Grace and Mercy toward all of us. We need great Grace because we are so judgmental at times. When God said he will pour out his spirit on all flesh I believe He meant ALL! If Roman Catholic and the like are not incompassed into the 'ALL' then I do not know who is. I looked up that word 'All' in the greek for that verse you know what it means? It means "ALL." Funny that 'All' means 'ALL'! My point is that we tend to over look that or see it as 'All the walk through our doors' or 'All in our organization.' I am ashamed of how I used to be. Like you, Jim, I looked down my nose at them and thought they had a fake HG or something. But then I took time to watch and learn and the 'fake' they had made them happy and holy. I thought there is something wrong and God spoke and told me I was the wrong one. I had to change my outlook cause of God's conviction!

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

One hundred and twenty changed the known world these millions have changed little or nothing.

Maybe not....but it has certainly changed THEM!

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by keith4him

Profession and Confession are far different from possession. Great that so many claim a experience, to bad the number of disciples have fallen greatly.

We need to recapture the call to go and make disciples not gather crowds or have people have have mass experiences.

Now THAT will preach!!!! Well said!!

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

This is a beautiful story of God's Grace and Mercy toward all of us. We need great Grace because we are so judgmental at times. When God said he will pour out his spirit on all flesh I believe He meant ALL! If Roman Catholic and the like are not incompassed into the 'ALL' then I do not know who is. I looked up that word 'All' in the greek for that verse you know what it means? It means "ALL." Funny that 'All' means 'ALL'! My point is that we tend to over look that or see it as 'All the walk through our doors' or 'All in our organization.' I am ashamed of how I used to be. Like you, Jim, I looked down my nose at them and thought they had a fake HG or something. But then I took time to watch and learn and the 'fake' they had made them happy and holy. I thought there is something wrong and God spoke and told me I was the wrong one. I had to change my outlook cause of God's conviction!

I was blind, but now I see... (that's my story too)

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

Now THAT will preach!!!! Well said!!



I was blind, but now I see... (that's my story too)

MOW, I think that is the same song and dance that alot on here have experienced. As you know it is an eye-opening thing. Not only is it challenging, but it makes you feel so small and horrible to see the errors of your way so to speak.

[Sam]

This is a quote from an interview with J.I. Packer in the March 23, 2008 Pentecostal Evangel which came in today’s mail. J.I. Packer is a theologian and is 81 years old. He is semi-retired and still teaches a couple of courses at Regent College in Vancouver British Columbia. He has been a professor there since 1979. Before that he taught for 27 years in England. He is the author of more than two dozen books, the most famous one is Knowing God which has sold 3 million copies.

He was asked several questions in the interview but I thought the last one was especially interesting to those of us who are familiar with Pentecostalism and the Holy Ghost Baptism.

Question: Why is Pentecostalism growing around the world?

Answer: The Pentecostal emphasis on life in the Spirit, which became a big thing at the turn of the 20th century, was absolutely right. It was an emphasis that hadn’t been fully grasped by other evangelicals for a long time. The up-front quest for fellowship with God that grabbed the whole of the heart and therefore had emotional overtones and the openness to a recurrence of some of the signs of the Kingdom was right. In the early 20th century evangelicals didn’t accept Pentecostals, and Pentecostals found themselves tempted to say, “We’re the only fully fashioned Christians in the world today.” Only during the last 50 years has real partnership and mutual respect become reality.

It’s simply a marvelous work of God that when the Pentecostal version of the gospel has been preached all around the world for the past half-century there has been a tremendous harvest. It’s a wonderful work in our time, which we can set against the decline of Christianity in North America and Western Europe. Most notably in Africa and Asia, Christianity has been roaring ahead through the Pentecostal version of the Christian message and life in the Spirit. I celebrate it and thank God for it. There have been older evangelicals who have set themselves against distinctive Pentecostal emphasis as if there’s something wrong with it. I have not lined up with those folk and indeed have argued that their attitude is mistaken.

[TRFrance]

The US population is now over 300 million. so according to Barna's numbers, there are over 100 million pentecostals/charismatics in America. To me, these numbers are questionable, to say the least.

Many times, these types of numbers represent the total number of people who are members of churches that are "pentecostal/charismatic/"full gospel" . But many of the people in these churches and denominations have not personally received the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

For example, as has been noted on this forum previously, only about 20% of Assemblies of God new-converts are now receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost (http://ag.org/top/news/news_article_...rticleID=9271&). I suspect the percentages are similar in many other "pentecostal/charismatic" churches and denominations that dont preach Acts 2:38 salvation.

[Sam]

Is American Christianity Turning Charismatic?

January 7, 2008

(Ventura, CA) - Pentecostal or charismatic Christianity is viewed by some Americans as an emotional, theologically suspect form of the Christian faith. It is widely thought to be a very vocal and visible, but numerically small slice of the grand religious pie in the United States. Two new surveys from The Barna Group, however, indicate that things are changing dramatically in the religious landscape. Those surveys - one among a national sample of adults and the other among a national sample of Protestant pastors - show that the number of churches and adherents to Pentecostal perspectives and practices has grown significantly in the past two decades.

Growing Numbers of People

A decade ago, three out of ten adults claimed to be charismatic or Pentecostal Christians. Today, 36 percent of Americans accept that designation. That corresponds to approximately 80 million adults. (For the Barna survey, this included people who said they were a charismatic or Pentecostal Christian, that they had been "filled with the Holy Spirit" and who said they believe that "the charismatic gifts, such as tongues and healing, are still valid and active today.")

Charismatics are found throughout the fabric of American Christianity. Although just 8% of the population is evangelical, half of evangelical adults (49 percent) fit the charismatic definition. A slight majority of all born again Christians (51 percent) is charismatic. Nearly half of all adults who attend a Protestant church (46 percent) are charismatic.

Charismatic Churches

One out of every four Protestant churches in the United States (23 percent) is a charismatic congregation. While some of the most common charismatic denominations are well-known - such as the Assemblies of God, Foursquare or Churches of God in Christ - non-denominational churches emerged as one of the most common charismatic "denominations." Four out of every ten non-denominational churches are charismatic.

The profile of the typical charismatic congregation is nearly identical to that of evangelical, fundamentalist and mainline Protestant churches. Four out of five (80 percent) have a full-time, paid pastor in charge of the ministry. The senior pastor is, on average, 52 years old - the same as in other Protestant churches. And the weekly adult attendance is equivalent to that of other Protestant bodies (82 adults at Pentecostal gatherings compared to 85 adults among all Protestant churches).

Myths Exposed

The Barna study found that several widespread assumptions about charismatic churches are inaccurate.

# Many people believe that charismatic Christianity is almost exclusively a Protestant phenomenon. However, the research showed that one-third of all U.S. Catholics (36 percent) fit the charismatic classification. Framed differently, almost one-quarter of all charismatics in the U.S. (22 percent) are Catholic.

# Charismatic churches are generally thought to belong to a rather strictly defined group of denominations. The growth of Pentecostalism, however, has crossed denominational boundaries in recent years. For instance, 7 percent of Southern Baptist churches and 6 percent of mainline churches are charismatic, according to their Senior Pastors.

# One widespread view is that charismatic Christianity is found mostly in small, relatively unsophisticated congregations. The research suggests something different. Charismatic congregations are about the same size as those of non-charismatic Protestant churches. Most surprisingly, charismatic ministries are more likely than other Protestant churches to use five of the seven technological applications evaluated. Those included the use of large-screen projection systems, showing movie clips in worship services or congregational events, using blogs, and web-based social networking by the church.

# In the past, many have observed that the female pastors were more likely to be welcomed into the Pentecostal community. However, 9 percent of both charismatic and non-charismatic Protestant churches are currently led by a female Senior Pastor.

# It is assumed faith trends in America are dictated by white churches, which represent about 77 percent of the nation's Protestant congregations. However, only 16 percent of the country's white Protestant congregations are Pentecostal, compared to 65 percent of the Protestant churches dominated by African-Americans.

Differences Discovered

The surveys did reveal several significant differences between charismatic and non-charismatic congregations. While the average congregational attendance at each type of church is similar, the non-charismatic churches tend to have larger annual operating budgets: $149,000 compared to slightly more than $136,000 budgeted by the Pentecostal ministries.

In like manner, the compensation of each group's Senior Pastors differs. Those who lead non-charismatic churches receive an average total compensation package of about $47,000 annually. In contrast, charismatic pastors receive a package worth about $42,000.

Pastoral education is another major distinction. A large majority of the Senior Pastors of non-charismatic churches (70 percent) have graduated from a seminary. Not quite half of the charismatic pastors (49 percent) have a seminary degree.

Reflections on the Research

The movement toward charismatic Christianity coincides with several cultural shifts, according to author George Barna, who directed the research projects.

"The charismatic orientation is most popular among the non-white population - which is, of course, the sector of the population that is growing most rapidly. Also, the freedom of emotional and spiritual expression typical of charismatic assemblies parallels the cultural trend toward personal expression, accepting diverse emotions and allowing people to interpret their experiences in ways that make sense to them," Barna explained. "It is not surprising that the Pentecostal community in America has been growing - nor do we expect it to stop making headway."

"We are moving toward a future in which the charismatic-fundamentalist split will be an historical footnote rather than a dividing line within the body of believers. Young Christians, in particular, have little energy for the arguments that have traditionally separated charismatics and non-charismatics. Increasing numbers of people are recognizing that there are more significant arenas in which to invest their resources."

About the Research

This report is based upon a nationwide telephone survey conducted by The Barna Group in December 2007 among a random sample of 1005 adults, age 18 and older. The maximum margin of sampling error associated with the aggregate sample is plus or minus 3.2 percentage points at the 95 percent confidence level. Statistical weighting was used to calibrate the sample to known population percentages in relation to demographic variables. The report also contains information from a nationwide telephone survey conducted among a random sample 1220 Senior Pastors of Protestant churches. The maximum margin of sampling error associated with the aggregate sample of pastors is plus or minus 2.9 percentage points at the 95 percent confidence level.

Being classified as a charismatic or Pentecostal was based on survey respondents saying that they "consider yourself to be a Pentecostal or charismatic Christian, meaning you have been filled by the Holy Spirit and believe that the charismatic gifts, such as tongues and healing, are valid and active today."

"Mainline Protestant" churches were those associated with the American Baptist, United Church of Christ, Episcopal, United Methodist, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, and Presbyterian Church in the USA denominations.

"Evangelicals" are people who meet the born again criteria (described below) plus seven other conditions. Those include saying their faith is very important in their life today; believing they have a personal responsibility to share their religious beliefs about Christ with non-Christians; believing that Satan exists; believing that eternal salvation is possible only through grace, not works; believing that Jesus Christ lived a sinless life on earth; asserting that the Bible is accurate in all that it teaches; and describing God as the all-knowing, all-powerful, perfect deity who created the universe and still rules it today. Being classified as an evangelical is not dependent upon church attendance or the denominational affiliation of the church attended. Respondents were not asked to describe themselves as "evangelical."

"Born again Christians" are defined as people who said they have made a personal commitment to Jesus Christ that is still important in their life today and who also indicated they believe that when they die they will go to Heaven because they had confessed their sins and had accepted Jesus Christ as their savior. Respondents are not asked to describe themselves as "born again."


© The Barna Group, Ltd, 2008.

[James Griffin]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

The US population is now over 300 million. so according to Barna's numbers, there are over 100 million pentecostals/charismatics in America. To me, these numbers are questionable, to say the least.

Many times, these types of numbers represent the total number of people who are members of churches that are "pentecostal/charismatic/"full gospel" . But many of the people in these churches and denominations have not personally received the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

For example, as has been noted on this forum previously, only about 20% of Assemblies of God new-converts are now receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost (http://ag.org/top/news/news_article_...rticleID=9271&). I suspect the percentages are similar in many other "pentecostal/charismatic" churches and denominations that dont preach Acts 2:38 salvation.

Barna's poll technique was valid, he polled individuals and not churches. However I have NO doubt that many on this particular forum would have a different understanding of the words "charismatic" or "pentecostal"


The truth is (even according to Barna) in the US the growth is only about 20% total over the past 10 years. Much can be attributed to non-white increase in membership(only 16% of the country's white Protestant congregations are Pentecostal, compared to 65% of the Protestant churches dominated by African-Americans.) Therefore the numbers are skewed to a degree because of the great influx of Hispanics which tend to lean toward the pentecostal churches. This population is of course growing at a MUCH faster rate than the population at large for example, and would contribute to an overall increase by means of immigration as opposed to conversion.

The criteria Barna used are-do you believe you are filled with HG (and don't most Christians believe they are spirit filled when they are saved?)and it is POSSIBLE for gifts of spirit to operate in this day(not did you personally experience them). By using his definition 36% of all catholics polled deemed themselves charismatic.

[James Griffin]

Thanks Sam for the reprint, I was trying to keep them from having to wade through the whole thing and just break down the summary.

But its good to have the whole article to refer to!