No Limits Conference Speakers?

[A_PoMo]

Originally Posted by Sweet Pea

APMO........ How exciting that you have baptized your son in Jesus name and he has received the Holy Ghost! I remember him as a baby and toddler - I "think" he was about three when you left us.

I know that in a previous post (or thread) you indicated that you have found a church you are happy with and that you plan to obtain a license in that organization (maybe I misunderstood) - however, I understood it to be a church that did not believe the oneness of the Godhead or baptism in Jesus name. If I misunderstood, I stand corrected.

I am very thankful that your relationship with family has been restored. I realize that many people who have left are not so fortunate.

I have no reason to doubt anything you have said regarding your experience in the UPC - some things I don't understand either. But I also believe that if a person is honest and sincere hearted in their desire to live for God, HE will guide them and direct them to a place where they can. Maybe it is my temperment and/or personality - however, I'm not sure that I totally believe that "spiritual abuse" is so prevalent.


You have made some very valid points though regarding they way things are presented to new converts. I truly believe that this has changed in a huge way at CLC. In the past, I think things were sometimes said that were intended for the old guard - but it hits the new people instead.

You also stated that you desire to see the UPC thrive and accomplish its mission .... and somewhere, I think I read where you feel God is leading you to plant a church...... well maybe YOU could plant a UPC church that would be a place of healing and safety.... (I can dream - can't I??? )

As to my comments regarding rumors and exaggerations.... to be honest, several years ago, I had heard that you were not living for God in any form or fashion. Don't ask where I heard it because truthfully, I don't remember.

In all seriousness - I truly pray that you find YOUR place in God's Kingdom and He uses your ministry in a mighty way!

Sakes alive, ya'll have been busy tonight. Sorry I couldn't respond sooner but I was at church at CLC. I am glad to report that I was not physically assaulted, my hair is intact, and my spinal column seems to be in good repair. haha. Actually, it was a good service and one of my old pastoral stuff buddies preached. Since I'm an MK my heart was warmed by the missionary emphasis of the service. Afterwards I hugged a bunch of necks and saw some old friends. A couple of literal double-takes at seeing me there which was kind of humorous. It was neat to see so many of my old new converts still there. I guess they haven't been abused too bad after all.

Brenden, yeah he was about three I think. He's 10 now. And tall. And a really sweet kid.

No, you're right, I may possibly transfer my ordination to a denom that has a different SOF than the UPC. But that's another whole story and involves more than I can say here. It's a good place though and God has brought us here of that I'm sure (as difficult as that may be to believe).

Ironically, I did have several people approach me about starting a church when NH became the pastor. They wanted to leave CLC and wanted me to be their pastor. I prayed about it for about three seconds and said no. That freaked me out. All of those people did end up leaving CLC and are scattered around but doing well from what I know.

You say there's stuff you don't understand. I'm happy to share if you want. If not, that's totally cool.

I'm saddened, but not surprised, that people said I wasn't living for God. I kind of suspected that might be what you meant but didn't want to assume. Although I've been through some EXTREMELY difficult spiritual challenges since I left I can say that I never left God, and He never left me (OMG, I'm going to start crying...) Anyway, there was a patch there of a couple years where I was sorting stuff out in regards to spiritual abuse and it was tough, tough, tough. I almost didn't make it. I never thought it existed either, at least not in my experience. But I had been in prayer about some things in my own life and character and I asked the Lord to show me why they were there and where did it come from? Later that afternoon I was sitting at a stoplight at Pershing & March and the Lord spoke to me clear as a bell and told me to got the Family Christian Bookstore right there and buy a book I'd heard about on Sarge's website. Immediately turned into the parking lot and bought the book. That was a Friday and by Sun I had read the book three times and had my world blown apart and thrown the book across the room several times in anger and desperation. No kidding, and no exaggeration. It explained soooooo much to me and ruined me for awhile. Not just about my time at CLC but prior to that as well. And the continuality of what was happening at JB's church where I worked at the time. Literally, my life has not been the same since. After I "left" JB's i didn't attend a church regularly for about a year. I had to get away in order to tune out all the voices and hear the voice of God. It was an Arabia experience for me. I worked at a church in Sac for about a year until I got sick w/CHF and couldn't go up there any more. Now that I'm stable physically and recovered for the most part emotionally and spiritually the Lord has called me back to ministry. But this time I have a clear understanding of who He is, who I am, and what I am to do and be. I'm not confused any more. I helped start a church last year and the Lord led me to my current church where it turns out they've been praying for a pastor who is called to reach emerging, post-modern generations, and that's me. It's been a journey. But I had to go thru the process and I had to leave the church for awhile before i could get here. I'm in therapy now as part of my preparation for ministry to help me ferret out any remaining issues that I can't see, and it's been good. So, I'm not sure why anyone would think I wasn't serving God if they'd actually talked to me and known where I was.

Well, this has been a long one. Sorry. Thanks for not getting to upset with me. I appreciate your kindness and I appreciate that you seem to understand that while I admittedly have issues that I'm not bitter, I'm just trying to make things better.

Would love to meetcha. I don't know if you know my parents personally, but Mom is going to be here in a couple of weeks. We'll prob come down to CLC for church now that I'm not scared to come there anymore. hahaha.

[A_PoMo]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

What other thread is that? BTW, I'm not a guy. Maybe I should change my name, everyone seems to think I'm a guy!LOL

Sorry about that. It's prob that I'm sexist. The one you asked if you could talk to me about post-modernism and the emerging church.
I've always been put off when "standards" are preached especially when there are visitors to the church for the first time. It usually ends up being their last time. I've had a total of three pastors since I've been a Christian due to moving and two of them didn't preach a certain holiness standard but general principles of holiness. So I can say I haven't seen the abuses you have witnessed. The hard spirit is the the same spirit the pharisees had.

Ya, I wanted to say the "P" word but people tend to get twitchy. Kind of like the "L" word that ends in "ism". I've learned to speak euphemistically in that regard.

From what I've read of her posts on this site, Sarge speaks with a caring heart and wisdom.
Sarge is the bomb. I owe her my life, no exaggeration. I love her even if we do disagree from time to time. I hope to meet her someday soon.

My gripe with your speaking against it is in naming names. Paul called Peter out right then and there when Peter showed respect of persons. And yes, Paul wrote about it openly in an epistle for all to read and learn, but how do you know that things have not changed with the ones you are speaking against? How do you know God has not dealt with them and they have not repented like you did? You may unintentionally be sullying a reputation, some one's good name, who truly had a change of heart. I prefer to hear these accusations in a more generic form, without names or without the surrounding information that makes it obvious who you are talking about.

Have you read A Tale of Three Kings?
I know it bothers people when I name names. And I understand some of the arguments against it. But, I know it goes on because I live here and I watch the internet and I have friends that still attend there. Yes, there have been changes but it still goes on. Much of it is subtle, thus the title of one of the most awesome books in the world "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse". My biggest reason for being specific is because if you're not specific then people tend to marginalize it and dismiss it as 'broad stroking'. Or they, as I did when I first heard about spiritual abuse, figure it was for some snake handler pedophile preacher in East Jersey and certainly not in MY urbane, sophisticated, well known church. By putting a face on it it makes it real and makes people face it. Especially if the accounts are first hand as I've done and not mere hearsay and internet rumors. I speak of who I speak because it is what I experienced and I know how much damage it did to me and I want it to stop. Believe me, I don't relish the confrontation. But I am convinced of its power and I feel compelled to combat it. However, in the future I will refrain from naming names if it offends people so much. My intentions were not to offend. I read Tale of Three Kings many moons ago and regret that I don't remember what it was about, sorry.

I respect you for apologizing to your friend. It takes humility to admit when we are wrong.



Like I said, we all answer to God. Do we have to sort every person out and point out their sins to others? Is that our job? Where does it say that in the Bible? Do you want your sins along with your name to be spread around the internet? Consider yourself.

The Bible most certainly tells us to exercise judgment and discernment and to stop bad things from happening and to actively oppose those who hurt God's children. If I am in a position of authority and influence and what I am doing is hurting people then I deserve to have people oppose me, on the internet or otherwise. Yes, it should be done face to face too by the person's peers of which I am not one anymore. I did talk to some of the people there about the things I saw that concerned me and was told to mind my own business and just do my job and made to feel as if I was contrarian and rebellious and out of tune with the Holy Spirit. I internalized those mischaracterizations (because I respected their opinion because they were my "elders") and live in a world for several years of false guilt, self-flagellation, and self-condemnation until the Lord showed me that I wasn't wrong.


Do we have to do it on a public forum? Or is this something that should be done face to face?

Letting God sort it out is not ignoring it. I'm saying we should pray for these leaders that abuse their authority in the Lord. You know some of this stuff is said in utter ignorance and with all belief that they are teaching what they believe to be the truth of the word of God. I know it's phariseeical but they are blinded to it and need our prayers. They don't see it as abuse. Truly they don't. God can convict them, just like he did you and many others.
I totally realize that and appreciate it. But if nobody says anything and nobody holds them accountable then they will never know what they are doing that is wrong.All I'm saying is that somebody has to start saying something when they see it. If enough people will speak up then maybe change will happen. If nobody says anything then nothing will change. But it CAN happen. In the denom of the church I currently attend it was in times past known as a part of the holiness movement. Along with that came the spiritual abuse and legalistic hardness. But somebody somewhere sad enough is enough and began the change and now things are much better and there is a better attitude toward these things in that group. Some churches are conservative and others are liberal in terms of Christian liberties. But they get along and there's no splitting going on like we see w/the WPF. But still they suffer from the residual affects of it as my pastor has confessed in public about how that era has affected his relationship with God in a negative way and how as a man in his mid-40's he is still working that out of his system. I identify with that state of being. But it doesn't have to be that way and so I spit in the wind and end up with most of it back in my face.


I agree with you that leaders should be held accountable to God for their actions as should everyone in the church.


I agree with you. May God have mercy on us all. LOL! Thank you for your honesty and for calling me on the things that you disagree with me about.

.............

[George]

Originally Posted by A_PoMo

Well, I guess it's obvious that I couldn't disagree w/ya'll more. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree as I don't want to contend for my views to the disunity of the group. I give specific examples of long term patterns of behavior and I'm "trashing a bishop". I'm sorry, but that people seem happy isn't all that matters. Righteousness and justice are what matter to God. This is the dominant theme from Exodus 34 through the new covenant. While in the UPC I heard alot of talk about accountability. But it seems that the level of accountability gets less and less with the more power and influence you gain. The bigger you get the more people bow and scrape and the more you know you can get away with. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. It is tragic that the people that have the greatest opportunity to do the most damage seem to have the least amount of accountability and are given the most latitude in wreaking havoc on people's lives. This is a systemic problem in the UPC (and evidently in the WPF based on NW's sermon as the titular leader of the new org) and it's slowly strangling the UPC in my view as it worms its way deeper and deeper into the fabric of the ethos. And it all starts (going back to the original point of this whole series of posts) with bad theology. There is an inbalanced view of respect for leadership, loyalty, accountability, church discipline, and the role and authority of pastors that over time leads us further and further away from truth and into more and more negative consequences for people and for the org. It can be stopped if people will say "enough is enough." However, evil triumphs when good men do nothing. We would NEVER stand idly by and watch a parent verbally and emotionally abuse a child. We won't even do that to dogs. But we do it all the time in our churches and I want to know why that's ok. I was talking to a preacher not long ago who is a high official in the UPC and who has been licensed w/the UPC for nearly 50 years. He told me that the UPC has changed over the last twenty years or so. He said that if he were starting over today and looking for an org that he'd not join the UPC and he'd discourage anyone from joining. He made the comment that its one of the only orgs he knows that kills its wounded almost as a matter of policy. One of his sons is in the UPC and this man has given him his blessing to leave. His reasoning has nothing to do w/the the WPF or lib vs.con or anything like that. He just recognizes the sickness in the UPC in this regard and based his opinion on principle. I thought that was pretty telling for one of its most loyal ministers to say something like that. As odd as it may sound, I love the UPC and its leadership. I want it thrive and I wish I could come back. So I guess I'll just leave it at that.

Not everybody reading disagrees with you. I don't know you, haven't read all your story, but I believe you have spoken truth about the abuse of power incidents.

[A_PoMo]

Originally Posted by Raven

A PoMo
[By the way, we are both LR but I have the shorter hair. lol]

I appreciate your words and have actually attempted to keep track of you through the years. I may not agree with all your statements [my wife doesn't even agree with all of mine believe it or not!] but I do understand the spirit of your posts. A person would have to be blind and deaf not to see some of the problems. I believe the best course is to move on, learn from the experience, keep a good spirit, and try to do something that will affect a positive change. Reading between the lines and listening to the Spirit I believe that this is what you are doing. Often the problem is the medium of the written word that we are compelled to use here. In person, you would very possibly come across completely different to those who may misunderstand you here on AFF. You are valued. You do have friends. It does matter what you think! You can't go back but you can go forward.
Raven

Raven (LR!),

You have no idea how helpful your kindness is to me. I do appreciate it. I am more than a little surprised that you seem so interested in me as we didn't have much interaction back then that I recall. You're right, the medium makes it difficult. My wife only agrees with one statement that I make about twice a year, "Yes dear, you're right."

[A_PoMo]

Hey you guys. I don't want to beat a dead horse and wear out my welcome. So if you wanna talk more that's cool I'm willin'. But if not, that's cool too. I love all you guys and I love God and I love ALL the people of God. And I love the church, the whole thing. I think the church is the hope of the world through Jesus Christ. I have a deep abiding passion for ministry and for those who minister. My concern is for the health of the church so that the church can more effectively do what God has charged it to do. The preacher at CLC spoke truth tonight (even if he was a tad melancholy) that it's all about the lost of the world and about brining glory to the mighty God. Amen to that!

[KarenJo]

Originally Posted by A_PoMo

I guess NH is a compassionate and nice guy and has a hunger for the Lord. That's all good. He certainly has toned down the whole NT Elijah thing thing he had going there when he was younger. I do appreciate his more measured and toned down approach to communicating. And like I said, I thought the message I heard earlier today was good and helpful and inspirational.

But Karen brings up a good point and it's one that concerns me about him and people that believe many of the things he believes. It's not so much how he says stuff that is the issue as much as what he says at times that causes problems for people. Words mean something and even if you say something with compassion and gentleness it can still be harmful if it's not true and it damages peoples relationship with God. The real problem is some of the wrong theology that he believes. Case in point, what Karen said about his fasting. He believed wrong things about fasting and I remember he would put alot of pressure on people to be like him in that regard and he was held up as the paragon of spirituality by alot of people and wannabe prophets. But he was wrong and even though his intentions were pure he hurt himself, his family, and I would say his church because of something he believed that was wrong.

I remember once he said this from the pulpit, "I just cannot see how it is possible that anyone who owns a television is going to heaven." He said it very compassionately, emotion in his voice, kindly, gently, etc... he wasn't screaming and spitting and all that. It was very sweet. But very deadly in that it is dead wrong and had the very real potential to distort people's understanding of God and holiness (which is an attribute of God) and put a load of false guilt and condemnation on people that happen to own televisions and took his word as truth. Words matter because they mean something. Even if you're compassionate and kind in how you say it the end result can be a damaged person who lives under false guilt due to bad theology. When you teach bad theology you're exchanging the truth for something else and that's never a good thing. True, we can survive these sorts of theological toxins in our souls and any one of them won't kill you. But it's the accumulation of many small untruths that can have a deliterious effect on people and they end up dying a spiritual death of a thousand spiritual cuts or they're walking around as spiritually walking wounded bleeding all over the place and their spiritual growth is severely hampered and stunted. It's as abusive and damaging as emotional and verbal abuse to children and spouses.

I remember another incident where JHaney taught one of my new converts classes. She told the ladies that pants were associated with prostitution and thus were an abomination to God. She was very "kind" in how she said it. But that didn't matte because words mean something. One of the new convert ladies got up and ran out of the room crying. I chased her to her car trying to console her and she refused to talk and never came back to church again no matter how hard I tried. In her mind she's a whore in the eyes of God.

That's the problem I have with NW's sermon and with some of the stuff I hear NH and others say. The untruth of what they say creates, over time, a seriously distorted picture of God and this in turn leads to alot of other bad stuff. Case in point, the Lord put me in the same insurance office as the boss of a girl who used to attend NW's church. The things she was told and internalized devestated her and created basket case. She would literally shake with fear when we'd drive by NW's church. She lived in literal fear of God. She wanted to go to NW's church but had been kicked out for what I feel was a relatively minor offense. She didn't feel she could go to any other church because they didn't 'have the truth'. She felt, due to the bad teaching she'd been taught, that God had rejected her and sincerely felt that she was reprobate and beyond forgiveness. It took me a long time to get through to her and she finally came to church w/me a couple of times. I could tell other stories but I'm sure alot of ya'll mad enough at me.

I appreciate what you had to say. (Is this BE from MoBe Productions?)

I can say that I did think that NH was unbalanced as a youth and because he didn't use wisdom with regards to fasting, he paid a price and is still paying it. I think with age there should come more mature thinking and now that he's married with 5 kids, he is more balanced than he ever was as a kid. I hate to hear of anyone who has left the church because they were treated so badly. We would all be better off to remember that words hurt and words heal. In my opinion, the days of abusive ministry need to be over. We need to stop trying to build the “MegaChurch” and remember that if we can't manage the people we already have then we don't need anymore. It's time to look again at the role of ministry and what the purpose of what ministry really is. Ego's need to be kicked out the door and it's time for ministry to remember that they wouldn't have a job if it wasn't for the people sitting in the pew!

[A_PoMo]

MoBe Productions. I forgot all about that, haha. Yup, that's me. I'll have to call the other half of that dynamic duo and see how he's doing. I haven't talked to him in awhile.

Thanks for being kind Karen. I appreciate your candor.

[KarenJo]

Originally Posted by A_PoMo

MoBe Productions. I forgot all about that, haha. Yup, that's me. I'll have to call the other half of that dynamic duo and see how he's doing. I haven't talked to him in awhile.

Thanks for being kind Karen. I appreciate your candor.

My friend!
I have only good and kind thoughts in regards to you and your family!! I'm glad to see that you are alive and well! MoBe - will always remain in my memory - we did have some good times....

[Maximilia]

It seems to me, if you're not an A list preacher (I know that sounds so carnal), it's hard to survive and thrive.

[A_PoMo]

Originally Posted by George

Not everybody reading disagrees with you. I don't know you, haven't read all your story, but I believe you have spoken truth about the abuse of power incidents.

Thanks George.