Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Newman

Wow. Although I have no time to stay and discuss the issue; I would love to see a thread started about the 400+ children in Texas that have been ripped from the lives they knew.

It is ALARMING to me that the state is seeking to terminate all parental rights (from what I have read).

Prosecute crime? Yes. But aren't we also prosecuting the victims of what they were taught all their lives without outside influence to the contrary? Girls who became mothers just past puberty and knew no other way?

And what of the implications of taking all the children from their parents (not just the ones in immediate harm's way) because we don't like what is taught?

It isn't that far removed from the idea that children could be taken from homes that aren't in step with mainstream society, is it? Think on that and hug your child.

So, what's the verdict? Is Texas right or wrong to remove all of the children and seek to terminate the parents' rights to these children?

What would you do? Are you sure? What path is set for the future????

Again, I wish I had time to discuss the issue, but don't. Hopefully, some others will think and post on this. I would love to read what you all have to say.

I discussed this with an employee today.

IF they had to go in and investigate I understand that.

However, it would only seem proper to leave the victims together with their babies and remove the men for questioning, while DNA and questioning could have occurred with the others on site (their homes)

Are these mothers accused of statutory rape or just the fathers?

I agree, it seems wrong - from the outside looking in at least.

[DanielR]

Originally Posted by cneasttx

I am assuming you are a man by your name, go figure. So you are saying that God condones rape of children? The parents didn't arrange the (marriages), Mr. Jeffs did although apparently the parents went along with it.
If he arranged marriages between adults it would be different. And of course he got rid of the young boys so there wouldn't be any hormonal problems as you referred to, but rather older men lusting after young girls, but of course they were only doing it to propagate polygamy and God's laws. Is that your argument? Or did I miss something?

Yes, of course I'm a man. But don't think that I personally approve of their practice because of my biblical and human history post. I said nothing about forced rape, or forced marriage. But was addressing the outcry to polygamy, arranged marriages and marrying at the young age. I don't pretend to know anything about the FCJCLDS. So I don't know how their system works, however, as I talked to the Jewish man I reference earlier I found out that not only was his grandparents involved, but so was his Rabbi and so was her Rabbi. The choice had been made when he was six. The couple had never met before he was 22, and they married when he was 25. No matter how we think about it, that's the way it works. People around the couple all work together to find the ideal mate for the young man (or woman as the case may be) Chances are there are more people involved in arranged marriages that the parents and religous leaders, although they are the major players in finding the right mate.

[Sweet Pea]

I hope no one took my post regarding government control to mean I condone in any way what was going on with this cult.... I was just thinking out loud about other issues.

Carry on............ I just wanted to be clear that I deplore what was going on in El Dorado, TX!!!!

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by Newman

Wow. Although I have no time to stay and discuss the issue; I would love to see a thread started about the 400+ children in Texas that have been ripped from the lives they knew.

It is ALARMING to me that the state is seeking to terminate all parental rights (from what I have read).

Prosecute crime? Yes. But aren't we also prosecuting the victims of what they were taught all their lives without outside influence to the contrary? Girls who became mothers just past puberty and knew no other way?

And what of the implications of taking all the children from their parents (not just the ones in immediate harm's way) because we don't like what is taught?

It isn't that far removed from the idea that children could be taken from homes that aren't in step with mainstream society, is it? Think on that and hug your child.

So, what's the verdict? Is Texas right or wrong to remove all of the children and seek to terminate the parents' rights to these children?

What would you do? Are you sure? What path is set for the future????

Again, I wish I had time to discuss the issue, but don't. Hopefully, some others will think and post on this. I would love to read what you all have to say.

Texas is right on. You cannot commit crimes in the name of religion and try to hide behind the Free Exercise Clause. If the law is one of general applicability (not aimed at discriminating against a religion) the state has a right to enforce that law. You cannot rape children and force them into marriages and expect that the state sit back and say "Oh, that's your religion? Well in that case go ahead and violate the law and those little girls too."
Polygamy has been a crime from the very founding of this country, and if you read the Justice Waite’s opinion in Reynolds he traces it back in the common law prior to the founding of this country. You can teach whatever you want in a religion, but you may not be able to act it out. This is not the ruling of a crazy liberal Supreme Court in the twentieth century, this was the ruling from the nineteenth century!

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Sherri

Although I think what went on is deplorable, it is scary that the government can step in and legislate what you can teach children. It may set a precedent that someday down the road we won't appreciate.

And... assuming any major portion of it is true.

I haven't followed this story enough but this whole thing reeks of Waco to me.

The accusations railed against the Davidians were a mix of lies, half truths and warmed over issues falsely brought against them in the past for which they had already been cleared.

I just have a huge amount of distrust that I am hearing the truth on issues like this.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Newman

Wow. Although I have no time to stay and discuss the issue; I would love to see a thread started about the 400+ children in Texas that have been ripped from the lives they knew.

It is ALARMING to me that the state is seeking to terminate all parental rights (from what I have read).

Prosecute crime? Yes. But aren't we also prosecuting the victims of what they were taught all their lives without outside influence to the contrary? Girls who became mothers just past puberty and knew no other way?

And what of the implications of taking all the children from their parents (not just the ones in immediate harm's way) because we don't like what is taught?

It isn't that far removed from the idea that children could be taken from homes that aren't in step with mainstream society, is it? Think on that and hug your child.

So, what's the verdict? Is Texas right or wrong to remove all of the children and seek to terminate the parents' rights to these children?

What would you do? Are you sure? What path is set for the future????

Again, I wish I had time to discuss the issue, but don't. Hopefully, some others will think and post on this. I would love to read what you all have to say.

Just from my perceptions: Texas tends to go a bit too far when it comes time to "clamping down" on a problem. These people lived there for years and followed this way of life. However manipulative and out of step their teachings may have been, for Texas to suddenly jump up and say, "Hey! You can't do that!" after turning a blind eye to these folks for so long seems hypocritical to me.

But then again - it is an election year. I think that explains why this happened now.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

And... assuming any major portion of it is true.

I haven't followed this story enough but this whole thing reeks of Waco to me.

The accusations railed against the Davidians were a mix of lies, half truths and warmed over issues falsely brought against them in the past for which they had already been cleared.

I just have a huge amount of distrust that I am hearing the truth on issues like this.

Waco was a case of the Feds going too far; though of course when you're on the receiving end I guess it doesn't matter who's dishing it out.

On thing about the Branch Davidians- they had a penchant for violence. They immediately opened fire on Federal agents serving a warrant. They then spread kerosene around the wooden structures of their "compound" to ensure a firery demise when the Fed inevitably attacked.

The nice Pentecostal looking FLDS folks seem to be more pacific. You know if the sheriff had even found hunting rifles, that they would have been paraded in front of the media. Instead these folks seem to have lived rather meek and quiet lives. Comparisions to Waco don't seem to fit - except the part about the government's role.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Texas is right on. You cannot commit crimes in the name of religion and try to hide behind the Free Exercise Clause. If the law is one of general applicability (not aimed at discriminating against a religion) the state has a right to enforce that law. You cannot rape children and force them into marriages and expect that the state sit back and say "Oh, that's your religion? Well in that case go ahead and violate the law and those little girls too."
Polygamy has been a crime from the very founding of this country, and if you read the Justice Waite’s opinion in Reynolds he traces it back in the common law prior to the founding of this country. You can teach whatever you want in a religion, but you may not be able to act it out. This is not the ruling of a crazy liberal Supreme Court in the twentieth century, this was the ruling from the nineteenth century!

Excellent points, Baron; especially about the time honored traditions behind our society's stand against polygamy.

I think what most people take issue with however is the "jack booted" approach and the subsequent pain we see coming from the moms and children. I notice too, that there have been no media photo ops with any of the "dads." I wonder how much of this is being staged by the defendants' counsel? Presumably these children fathers. Where are they?

[Sister Alvear]

I only read page one and this last page however I tend to agree with Newman.
I feel deeply sorry for the mothers...and no doubt "some" of the men thought they were doing the will of God...others were "wise guys"

Having friends in cults it makes me sick at my stomach how some people are blindly washed away by this kind of stuff.

We may not form a cult like that but if we are not careful it is easy to wind up with a cult mentality...

[Sister Alvear]

It is scary to think that the government can just walk in and bust things up for we do not know how far that power can go...