Hell Bound? Says who???

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I trust the words of Jesus without a doubt "the gates of Hell shall NOT prevail."
I believe Luke 12:47-48 concerns people IN the Kingdom not excusing folks NOT in the Kingdom. And you know what places you in the kingdom Jn.3:5, Acts 2:38.

I agree that the gates of Hell did not prevail. Please note something about that verse...it reads that the gates of Hell shall not prevail against the Church. That means that in the very wording of the verse we see a church assulting the gates of Hell and conquring the stronghold of the enemy. It depicts a war. In every war the battle lines wax and wane as forces advance and fall back. There have been conditions in which enemy forces had advanced on American forces...yet they were not to prevail...American forces regrouped and lead an all out assult pushing the enemy back into defeat and surrender. Don't be so simplistic as to think that just because we are promised that we will prevail that Hell cannot get the upperhand or that Hell has never had the upperhand. The promise is that the gates of Hell shall not prevail...and just when Hell thought it had Catholicized the church and had her bound in apostasy, just when Hell had the Bible chained to Catholic pulpits, just when Hell had the people ignorant and illiterate, just when Hell had seemingly ensured that the Bible would only be read in Latin...GOD breathed on his sleeping bride and embers of faith and a hunger for truth and righteousness began to burn. Men began to challenge the established Catholic church and her godless traditions. These men had read the Scriptures and found that while they didn't understand it all...they were discovering day be day that the Catholic church was wrong. Many gave their very lives. All were repentant, all used of God were water baptized (though perhaps incorrectly), all had experienced the Baptism of the Holy Ghost though they didn't know what it was and many simply called it "ecstatic ecstasy". You may find it interesting that Tyndale was rather hospitable to priests who were being lead to study the Scriptures and were hungry for truth. Do you know what Tyndale called this group? He called them simply, "apostolic brethren", in his writings. Prophetic? Perhaps. However God used him mightily to get the Bible translated into English. As each wave of restoration and revival swept the Church new truths were being discovered in God's Word, communion for memorial, baptism by emersion, believer's baptism, congregational structure as opposed to Papacy, faith, holiness, Holy Ghost infilling, the Oneness of God, and Jesus name baptism.

Friend...it's the story of an epic battle. There were days when it seemed all was lost. There were days when Hell crucified and burned those striving to be faithful to Holy writ. However, just as Jesus promised, the gates of Hell did not prevail. Christ's Words were clear...there would be a battle. Certainly the purpose of his Words was to encourage the Church as she endured these long years of apostasy and persecution. I can see men bound in stocks for reading the Bible...though they didn't know all it taught...they knew it had the answers and the Catholic Church was corrupt. In their eyes you can see a fire and faith for Christ's words..."the gates of Hell shall not prevail".

And they didn't!

Today God has restored his bride to her Apostolic beauty. The movements of yester year have no power, like old manna, their substance has long vanished. Searching for the truth we've received they're uniting to share in their "dialogue of faith"...what they don't see is that we have received the most recent revelation of God's truth. We are the revival we've all been praying for. One by one these denominations are falling to greater and greater error. In their unity they are being positioned to unite once more with the Catholic Church and then they will have completed their rejection of truth, the cup of judgment will be full, and the Harlot will be judged.

I have in my hands a King James Bible. Certainly if God has always had a church like unto ourselves in every age we would know who they were. Certainly they would have preserved God's Word and we would have had no need to receive the Bible as it was unchained from Catholic pulpits. Since there would have always been a church there would have always been an available Bible! Where is that Apostolic Bible? And better yet...if there isn't an Apostolic Bible...how was there a church like unto our own if they had no Bible?

We know that Jesus said that a man must be born of water and Spirit. Most Reformers were indeed water baptized, though in the only way they knew. Many have written things that make us wonder if they may have even received the baptism of the Holy Ghost during their studies and search for truth. Yes, there was much tradition clouding their vision...however they were staggering toward the light as a loving Savior beckoned them. And you wouldn't even have a Bible today if God didn't use them to provide it. I praise God for them. And I refuse to stand in condemnatory judgment against them. Nor will I assume that I know for certain that they were saved. I will simply allow God to be their judge.

Remeber, Acts 2:38 shows us the proper way to be born of water and Spirit. However, we risk playing God if we pretend that God is incapable of having mercy on those who have sought to obey and did so imperfectly. We serve a merciful God.

Luke 12:47-48
" 47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

Only God is qualified to judge a soul who obeyed in the best manner they knew.

I assure you I'm for all three steps (repentance, water baptism in Jesus name, and infilling of the Holy Ghost). However, I will not rule out the possibility that God could choose to have mercy on those who performed those steps imperfectly. God alone is qualified to judge and show mercy. I leave him room to be God.

[ChristopherHall]

Also consider,

Mark 9:38-40
" 38And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40For he that is not against us is on our part."

It's obvious that this individual was a total stranger to the disciples. Certainly this man didn't have a full understanding of all that the disciples understood. How did Jesus view him? We see that he's not counted as an enemy nor does Jesus speak condemnatory toward him. Condemnation toward those with limited knowledge and association has always been an issue for those walking closest to Christ.

[Sister Alvear]

You know dear ones everytime I read about sincere folks I weep...It is like a knife sticking into my stomach...I actually feel pain. I wonder why God´s servants are so slow reaching these sincere people...

[Sister Alvear]

Hello Light...love you folks.

[Light]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Hello Light...love you folks.

Praise the Lord !!!
We had a wonderful time in Brazil with you. The stay in your home was worth millions. You,Br. Alvear and family and the people treated us like kings. I forgot to get the welcome sign that I wanted so bad. Maybe the next time I wont get sick. The doctor said my problem was dehydration.
I know you have been busy but when you get the time remember to get us the receipt of that wonderful chicken soup.
Love you all.

[Sister Alvear]

One of the kids just walked into my office singing, One,one, one, one way to God....
Everytime I hear a Brazilian sing that I am thankful once again He called me to be a missionary.

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

I think we are talking on a discussion board with other saints, and not out in the public officially sending folks to hell. But I think it is foolish to think that someone is judging a sinner if they, by the unction of the holy ghost, tell that person they are lost and in need of a savior. Warning someone of their future sometimes is necessary for them to change direction.

StMatthew,

We are on a public discussion board that the lost, backsliders, and non-Apostolic Christians can easily read. Some may have been witnessed to by an Apostolic and just be surfing the internet to see what we’re about and land here. So as long as it’s public…I think we should have caution, patience, and wisdom when discussing salvation and categorizing people as “hell bound” and “not hell bound”.

I have no issue with following the unction of the Holy Ghost. I’ll say things under the unction of the Holy Ghost that I’d never say of my own accord. There was a man named Dave at Echoing Valley Residential Center that I worked with. Dave went to a Church of God that taught that tongues were of the devil. He shared what his pastor taught on the issue and while there was obvious disagreement I remained cordial praying that God open his eyes. Dave was also our bus driver. One day I was assigned to go on the bus with him and assist with dropping residents off at Goodwill Industries, United Cerebral Palsy, and Calumet Center. Well, on the way back it was just us in the bus and he made a mocking remark about the gift of the Holy Ghost. Suddenly God came over me and I told him he was a two fold child of Hell who had spoken against and resisted the Holy Ghost. Bro…he looked at me like I had gone crazy. I found out after he had been let go that his sister had married a Pentecostal and our friend Dave had a lot of un-repented bitterness toward Pentecostals. Dave had heard the truth of the Holy Ghost and had been rejecting it and rejecting it. Apparently I was one of God’s many attempts to get through to him. But when God tells you to speak bro…I firmly believe in saying exactly what he tells us to speak.

I firmly believe there is a difference between resistance and ignorance. I’d never condemn or judge an ignorant person who just didn’t know or understand. However, I fear for those who do know and reject the truth. There’s a big difference in my book.

Now as to those that have already died (i.e. Tyndale), how can anyone that believes Acts 2:38 is the only means of salvation not believe that someone that has not obeyed would be lost. IF there is any doubt in your mind as to what it takes to be saved, then you really do not believe what you say is "the only way".

I see your logic. But a lot is being assumed there. If I absolutely believed that Acts 2:38 was the only way and I believed that there was absolutely no way I could be mistaken certainly I’d agree. But I make stakes daily. There are things I used to believe and teach and now I have to admit…I was mistaken. I firmly don’t believe I’m mistaken about Acts 2:38, but in all honesty…what if I’m wrong? What if the interpretation I’ve taken is too extreme leaving God little room to operate outside of the box I believe is “the only way”? In fact, Acts 2:38 isn’t “the only way”….Jesus is the way. All things are predicated upon Him and nothing else.

Here’s something to consider…only two things are commanded in Acts 2:38. Peter commands his listeners to repent and be baptized in Jesus name. He then “promises” them the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost isn’t something we’re commanded to do…it’s a promise we are promised to receive if we obey.

So now let’s consider someone who has repented of sin and been water baptized. They may not have had the right words spoken over them…but they sought to obey with all the knowledge and options they had available. Now let’s consider that they have had deep experiences with the Holy Ghost in prayer that they don’t understand. Do we condemn them? Is it possible that God can forgive them for trying their best to obey? I think it’s possible. We all have children that have done their best to please us. I remember when I was younger I tried to make my mother a cake for mother’s day. Brother…it was a mess. I had all the right ingredients…I just mixed them wrong. I even applied the icing wrong and tore it up somewhat. My mother looked at me and cried, bore me up, and hugged me. I did my best.

Ok…Tyndale and many others had repentance, water baptism, and some deep unexplainable experiences in the Holy Ghost. They didn’t know it…but the words spoke over them might have been incorrect. What are the right words? Do we say, “In the name of Jesus Christ be baptized!” Do we say, “According to the profession of your faith I hereby baptize you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.”, or do we say, “I baptize you in the name of the Lord Jesus for the remission of sins!”? What are the exact words needed? Is it the words that matter….or is the obedience exemplified by the believer as they seek to be associated with Christ’s burial that matters? Will God say, “Ha! Sorry Tyndale, you had no idea but the guy who baptized you didn’t say the right words! Oh, I know you had never heard of ‘Jesus name baptism’, but you know what…you should have known better. Now burn baby burn!” I just can’t see it. Now…do I instantly put Tyndale in Heaven? Nope. That’s going too far in the other direction. I just give it to God and trust that he knows how to judge who best obeyed Acts 2:38 according to their best ability and understanding.

Bro…I’ve made many mistakes in my life. I’ve had incorrect ideas and notions of what the Bible taught. I’m going to give that one to God bro. I trust him more than I trust me. I trust him more than I trust our Elders (whom I greatly respect). Did Jesus fulfill all righteousness and die in our place to make up the difference in areas where we sin, fail, or are mistaken? We serve a merciful God. That’s why I differ all judgment to Him, even though I believe my understanding of Acts 2:38 is the correct viewpoint. I would never tell someone outside of the Apostolic movement that they were going to Heaven without a doubt. I have always indicated that outside of obedience to God’s plan as expressed in Acts 2:38 one gambles with their soul…and the odds are against it. I give them room to breathe, consider the text, and consider their choices. I don’t believe in scare-ism Christianity. It only produces Christians who want fire insurance. I believe in warning of what could happen if they disobey…and I leave it in their hands from there. Their choice is their choice. And I leave God in control to convict, draw, and judge.

TO BE CONTINUED:

[ChristopherHall]

Its not judging, or sending someone to hell. You did not send anyone, nor can you ever send anyone, to hell. The fact is that those that do not obey Gods call go to hell. Again, we are on a discussion board with those that are of like faith (for the most part), so our conversation here would not be the same as it would be towards those that lose a loved one. But when someone asks if Tyndale was saved or lost, all I can do is answer according to scripture, lest someone interpret my silence to say that there is another way to be saved.

Again, this is a public board and you might be surprised at how many backsliders and non-Apostolics just might end up reading it.

I don’t believe in being silent. I tell them this is what the Bible teaches. And therefore if they want to be sure of anything they have to obey the Bible…and if they want to gamble with their immortal soul, they’re free to go down the road to the First Church of the Frozen Chosen. This keeps dialogue open and prevents provoking them to reject the gospel outright. It brings them to the place where they can safely consider what the Scripture is saying…without retorting verse for verse. If God’s not drawing them by his Spirit…they’re free to go their way, but the door is still open. I try to never burn that bridge or deeply offend unless I feel God specifically calling me to do so. And here’s an amazing thing…I’ve never yet felt God tell me to speak strongly against a person, doctrine, or sin where God didn’t leave a door of mercy wide open.

Here’s something that bothers me. We sing songs written by Trinitarians and we use books and materials by them. I’ve even heard preachers “modify” their sermons and preach ‘em. We even read and use bibles produced and translated by Trinitarians. I feel a bit uneasy offering blanket condemnations. We say there was always an Apostolic Church through the ages. Well…where were they? What Bible did they use? (I’d vote we still use it!) Where are their songs of worship? Where are their churches? When we hear of a group that may have been Modalist we rarely see them believing exactly like we do. We never seem to see Montanism and Modalism (with Jesus name baptism) combined in a single body. Many were even polygamous. I remember being told that the Cathars were Apostolics. Bro…I studied some of the writings and histories attributed to them. NO WAY. They were dualists believing that God and Satan were equals. If they existed, they left no evidence meaning they had no impact, and it could be argued that the gates of Hell prevailed. If their wasn’t an Apostolic Church…but God had no mercy for those in the traditional church, the gates of Hell prevailed. Either way Hell prevailed…unless God’s mercy was greater.

When I’m teaching a person and they ask me about church history, I’m uncomfortable telling them some of the things we typically attribute our movement to. Without solid evidence for a church like ourselves…I cannot say there was a significant church of any consequence that believed like we do. It’s about knowing that what I’m saying is true. There’s nothing worse than telling a person well steeped in church history and doctrine that we are associated with Montanists, Cathars, and theosophist Christians and they call you on it. Bro…it will destroy the truth’s testimony.

Here’s a final consideration, we make exceptions in other areas to account for God being a just judge. For example with children; I know ministers who have presided over funerals of 7 year old kids who were un-baptized and not filled with the Holy Ghost and he stated that he believed they were saved. They seem to forget that sin is a part of our nature that must be forgiven and atoned for…not merely what we’ve done. Also I taught Sunday school for 8 years. I’ve seen 6 year olds get the Holy Ghost and be water baptized after repenting of their sins. If there can to absolutely NO exceptions…the 7 year old in this example never made it to Heaven.

I’d much rather believe that we serve a just and merciful God and trust him to do the judging than assume I am qualified to judge based on my interpretation of the Word. I can be mistaken. God is never mistaken.

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Concerning this supposed restoration was it God did NOT have the power to maintain what He began or did NOT have the will?

I think a brief look at ancient Israel would serve as an excellent example. Israel was God’s people. Yet we see throughout their history how the nation descended into apostasy time and time again until God sent a prophet or man of God to turn the people back to Torah (God’s Law). We see how Jerusalem was even devastated and the Temple had to be rebuilt and the God ordained pattern of worship and atonement had to be revisited. We also see how kings and prophets searched the Scriptures and found how the people and the religious leaders had neglected the issues of God’s commands such as the Sabbath and tithe. In Israel we see the human tendency to drift into tradition and apostasy…but we also see something else…God had much mercy on his people and restored them with REVIVAL time and time again.

I now ask YOU…did God NOT have the power to maintain the Israel He began…or did He NOT have the will?

It’s not that God doesn’t have the power or the will…it’s simply that fallen human beings distort, traditionalize, and apostatize over a period of time. This is why REVIVAL is so important. Revival isn’t an option….revival is our SURVIVAL.

Carry what we see in ancient Israel into the Church Age. We see the church become popular and eventually she’s coopted by the state. The offices of bishop become very powerful political posts and soon the church is just another political social entity. In the process she traditionalizes, forms liturgies, institutes a professional priesthood, builds massive edifices to demonstrate her power and herd the masses to hear her teachings, the priests adopt icons, and idols. Converted pagans void of true spiritual revelation bring in pagan terms and traditions, only to Christianize them. God sends a revival…a man begins to read the Bible and he is burned at the stake for challenging the priesthood. Soon there are periods of revival throughout history and they are met with extreme persecution. Eventually the Catholic Church chains the Bible to her altars and forbids the common man to read it. Repentance is hindered with the false doctrines of penance and indulgences, water baptism is ceremonialized into sprinkling and titles are spoken instead of the name, many experience the Holy Ghost in what was called “spiritual ecstasy” and these are often denounced as heretics and embraced as monastic mystics after their deaths. It seems Hell is conqured…but then a man named Martin Luther begins to actually read his Bible and God’s Spirit moves upon his tradition laden heart and begins to show him truths that challenge the Roman Catholic Church. He nails his 95 thesis to the wall of his church and the Reformation begins. The Reformation brought waves of revival as men began to turn toward God’s Word. Various reformers (such as Knox and Huss) begin to press deeper into the Word as scholarship begins to uncover truths that had been hidden for nearly a 1,000 years. Soon Revivalists Wesley, Whitfield, and others set the world aflame with messages of true repentance and obedience, however their understanding is still limited. Fundamentalist Churches break forth and denominations are formed around truths discovered in Scripture. Yet God has more. When the time was right those who had repented of sin cried out in hunger for God’s next restoration…a revival. The time was right…God poured out the Holy Ghost in massive power at Stone’s Folley, Azuza, and in Wales. It sets the Christian world on fire. Of course Jesus promised something…the Holy Ghost would lead us into all truth. With the fullness of Holy Ghost baptism in operation again God reveals to those students of the Word that He is manifest in Christ alone….and the doctrine of Oneness breaks forth among the Pentecostals. Soon Jesus name baptism is restored.

Bro…anyone who knows Israel can see how God has a consistent record with restoring his people from their traditions and apostasies. Certainly it’s a possibility that this is also seen in the Church.

Many historians have given evidence of a truth preaching Apostolic church through the ages.(Marvin, Chalfant, Wiesser, etc.)

I’ve read Marvin, Chalfant, and Wiesser’s work. For example Marvin and Chalfant state that the Cathars were early Apostolics. Bro…patchworks of the Cathar’s writings still exist. They were Gnostic duelists who also embraced polygamy and reincarnation. Marvin even proposed that Arians and Apostolics are of the same cloth…bro…that’s far, far, far from the Truth. Marvin Arnold proposed that the Gothic Bible was widely distributed among early Apostolics and was indeed the Apostolic Bible…again Gothic Christianity inherited the errors of the Arians. The Gothic Bible is Arian...it's not even Modalist! Marvin Arnold also claims that the Nestorians were early Apostolics…bro…we have plenty of Nestorian writings and we can even travel to Asia and visit Nestorian churches and shrines…they were NOT Apostolics. The only thing things groups have in common is that they denied the Trinity. Some were Modalists, some Manachian, some Duelists, some Arian. Is God a God of confusion????????????????? Is this were you trace YOUR spiritual heritage?

I firmly believe that the bitterness against the Trinitarian Church’s rejection of our truth lead many men to produce a form of Apostolic Historical Revisionism that has distorted the truth of many of these early groups. Please note…Christadelphians, JW’s, and Sabbatarians also trace their supposed history to these groups. Why? The rank and file Christian knows so little about them it can be made to appear that there has always been a consistent church. But in-depth research will reveal otherwise. Most of these anti-Trinitarian groups didn’t baptize in Jesus name. I believe it was the Bogomils or the Cathars who regarded “baptism” as a meditative experience of confession…there wasn’t even water involved. LOL

I’m sincerely looking for TRUTH on the matter. Can you PROVE to me that I can trace my history to these Gnostic groups? Can you prove they weren’t polygamists, duelists, Gnostics, and seditionists? I’ve tried and tried and tried. Why? Because truth matters to me. It’s not enough for me to merely pass the buck to Marvin, Chalfant, or Wiesser if I’m incorrect and found to be lying on history. If God could have mercy on the extreme error in these groups, errors exhibited in what we have of their own works…certainly God could have mercy on Martin Luther, John Huss, John Knox, Wycliffe, William Tyndale, Wesley, Whitfield, leading up to Parham, McAlister, Urshan, Haywood, and others…who by the way saw themselves as a RESTORATION of the church without even referencing these obscure cults we find down through history. Did these groups suddenly VANISH in 1890? Where are their decedents today? They melted into obscurity as more and more Biblical light was revealed and there errors were increasingly rejected.

Can you help me with this bro? I’ll gladly reverse my position.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

I think a brief look at ancient Israel would serve as an excellent example.

Man you crack me up you post the longest essays on here. You referred to this one as brief? I am like the ADD poster child, I forget what you are talking about one third of the way through your post. Concise and precise grasshopper.