Charismatic Apostolic

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Joelel

Hi Michael,I think where alot of people are not understanding us about perfection is, if we make every effort to live holy we are perfect at what ever state of perfection or growth we are in.The bottom line is though,most people don't make every effort because if they did they would be delievered from what ever sin they live in.

can you define "whatever sin they live in". Do you know for a fact most pentecostals or christians are living in sin?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Joelel

Believe me,people need to hear the truth.People need to understand that if their still living a life in sin they are of the devil,not the Holy Ghost.There are too many deceivers in the world taking people to a devils lake of fire (tribulation).

1John.3
[1] Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
[2] Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
[3] And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
[4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
[5] And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
[6] Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
[7] Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
[8] He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
[10] In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
[11] For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another

and what makes you think this board is full of them? What is living in sin to you?

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
1Jn 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Joelel

Tell me what you think about the underlined part of this scripture ?

Eph.5:3: But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;4: Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.5: For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God

Gal.5:19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God

1 Cor.6:9: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,(Homosexuals)10: Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God

Do you agree these things in red is sin ? Do you think Jesus did these things in red ? Do you agree we are to be pure as Jesus is pure ? Do you agree if we abide in him we sin not ?

1 John3:3: And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.4: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.5: And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.6: Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him

I'm afraid that my standard for understanding God's purity may be a bit higher than yours. You, simply put, are not as pure as He is. And don't bother to protest, you are not. It's as simple as that.

Now for me to try and make someone else to "become like the Almighty," I am either spurring them into a Satanic rebellion (Isaiah 14:14) or I am filling them with despair over trying to do something that they simply cannot do. Hebrews 12 comes to mind here.

[Michael The Disciple]

It is the use of the English word "perfect" that seems to cause some grief here; and I would argue that since Jesus didn't speak English during His eartly ministry and since there are better words than what the KJV uses here - why not use those words.

People wilt under the pressure of trying to be "perfect." However, if we say that there is a process of maturity that we all go through - then it's not so bad. The final goal may be the same, but I think I can make a journey that is comprised of doable steps; where I would fail if I had to suddenly become "perfect."

I see the English perfect like this:

My car was designed by its maker to run perfect or without fault. If it DOES it is only doing what is was designed to do. If it gets a funny noise or a wobble of some kind in it I know it needs work. I get the work done bringing it back to its perfect condition.

God has made the new creation in such a way that we can do all that his will requires. If we do not we are not being diligent to follow/abide in Christ. We must return to that place we were without sin.

This is the easiest doctrine I know of to teach from scripture. Its overwhelming in its scope yet not to difficult for the disciple to folow through with.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I'm afraid that my standard for understanding God's purity may be a bit higher than yours. You, simply put, are not as pure as He is. And don't bother to protest, you are not. It's as simple as that.

Now for me to try and make someone else to "become like the Almighty," I am either spurring them into a Satanic rebellion (Isaiah 14:14) or I am filling them with despair over trying to do something that they simply cannot do. Hebrews 12 comes to mind here.

But can we be like Jesus, Pel? Did He not sin because He was God or because He was a man anointed of God who always sought to please His Father?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Yes who is denying we should follow through with Jesus commands about how to treat people?

But are you denying that we should follow through with all the rest of the teachings of Jesus? If so on what basis? If we are to keep his word about how we treat others what makes the rest of his teachings undoable?

What is the difference in the doctrine of perfection and the Doctrine Of Perfection?

So the King James is a hillbilly Bible? Thats funny. You suppose it was made here in Kentucky?

So some seem to not understand that Strongs definition of perfect includes being complete in moral character. If the word just means "mature" we know that means grown up.

So now with THAT definition alone we are supposed to be grown up EVEN AS our Father in Heaven is grown up!

If we are to be grown up as the Father is do you suppose we would be sinning?

I see that you've added to this post making my statement about decaf all the more relevant.

No, I never said the King James Bible was "hill-billy." For you to make out like I did reveals a certain quality of deceit and sin in your life that I would like to call to your attention, as a brother and in love.

You should really try and pay more attention and refrain from twisting and distorting the words of others. This practice is clearly condemned in Exodus 20:16; 2 Timothy 3:3 and James 4:11.

I would like to implore you to take a moment right now and consider this breach that you have made with the purity and holiness that God demands of each of us. Repent of this and turn to Christ for forgiveness. As your brother, I have already forgiven you.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

...
So some seem to not understand that Strongs definition of perfect includes being complete in moral character. If the word just means "mature" we know that means grown up.

So now with THAT definition alone we are supposed to be grown up EVEN AS our Father in Heaven is grown up!

If we are to be grown up as the Father is do you suppose we would be sinning?

The Greek word "teleos" really has no one word that it translates into in the English language. As you can see from the word itself, it has been used, or "coined," into the English language for such modern words as "telephone," "telegraph," "telescope" and "telegram." In these cases the idea is "bringing from afar" or doing something like "writing (Greek: graphos) afar."

The idea of maturity comes up when we consider the context of some usages and how that the idea of traveling "a distance" through time is involved.

But for you, yes, I think you've found your meaning with the phrase "grow up."

[Michael The Disciple]

The King James may even be less than "perfect" in even translating the underlying Greek words into "perfection." The NIV uses "maturity." I think this rendering avoids some of the hill-billy theology that I describe and that you appear to have been fortunate enough to have avoided.

I take that to mean the KJV leads to hillbilly theology.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

But can we be like Jesus, Pel? Did He not sin because He was God or because He was a man anointed of God who always sought to please His Father?

I don't understand the your question.

Consider 1 John 3:2. What I will become when I am truly "like" Him won't have anything to do with my striving against sin. It will be a result of His appearance and something that happens then that I probably won't have a lot of power over.

In the meantime, yes, we are to seek to be more and more like Him. But to use the English word "perfect" here seems to be hubristic to me. We are not as perfect as God is. Plain and simple, unless you want to constantly state that you are actually using the word "perfect" in some specialized way and with your own special definitions. In which case it's probably better to just use a different word.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The King James may even be less than "perfect" in even translating the underlying Greek words into "perfection." The NIV uses "maturity." I think this rendering avoids some of the hill-billy theology that I describe and that you appear to have been fortunate enough to have avoided.

I take that to mean the KJV leads to hillbilly theology.

Could you try and be a little more "perfect" in your method of quoting my posts? If you need help you can page an admin, though at this hour you might as well wait until morning. It's getting to be bedtime for me. I wish you well and hope that you have an excellent weekend.