Biblical guide for a "church service"

[SavedLou]

Originally Posted by Dr. Vaughn

Brother,, this is BEFORE the PAULINE EPISTLES,, this is before Church Order was established.. this even happened in the infancy of the church.. Paul brought us into maturity... away from Baby steps.. away from chaos.....

Let me ask you this.. Lets say you had just founded a church

The people are all excited... there's lots of emotions,,, and people are actually going out and witnessing and embarassing the church by forcing themselves on people.... and you let it go for now because they are babies

but then you realize it is time for them to mature some.. so you bring order.....

Now, is everything they done before you brought order... the guide you want them to go by.. or the ones most recently set?

Same logic applies here.. Peter was an Evangelist... this was not a "called gathering of the local church" and then much later Paul comes in to bring ORDER to Gods church...

So, what should our guide be? This Pre-Pauline event... in the infancy of the church... or the last instructions we have from our Apostle?

first of all it's sister, not brother but to answer your question, of COURSE we must have order and start to mature. but in my opinion paul's directions in corinthians were to the church there who were not doing things orderly or as they had already been established throughout the NT. the upper room experience of 120 people receiving the HG, speaking in tongues as a worship experience or those praying to themselves in tongues is totally different than 1 or 2 giving a clear, direct message to the church. and when THIS is done at our church, yes of course there is an interpreter.

[SavedLou]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Amen. I have been making that point now for a while, but he keeps blowing off my posts. He has a limited view of what it means to gather as a church......but the fact is the bible says where two or more are gathered "there will I be in the midst"...Jesus did not say "if they are gathered ONLY for the purpose of teaching lessons"....

Churches gathered for many reasons according to the word. They prayed. They taught. They used the gifts to edify. They worshipped. They prayed for each other. They ministered to visitors or unbelievers. And they even made important church decisions like doctrinal issues and excommunicating a member

exactly...and who's to say there wasn't a crowd of witnesses around the 12 men that day.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Dr. Vaughn

Brother,, this is BEFORE the PAULINE EPISTLES,, this is before Church Order was established.. this even happened in the infancy of the church.. Paul brought us into maturity... away from Baby steps.. away from chaos....

Baloney. What you are doing is taking the Corinthian example and ASSUMING this was occuring in ALL churches and Paul was sent to begin a new thing not done in all the churches....church order.

In fact that is false. Paul was not sent for THAT reason. He was sent to preach the gospel to the Gentiles. He was their apostle and so he wrote letters to each to help them. In one such instance he had to address the Corinthian church because of their excesses, abuses and tolerance of an individual found in sin. That was specific to the Corinthian church, not to all churches.

The ORDER he brought TO them was on their abuses of the gifts of the Spirit. Everyone wanted to stand up and give a message. But clearly not everyone can. So Paul said let it be by the most of 3.

I asked this already but you blew me off. How would someone know if there is no intepretor before hand? They would not. What you are not seeing is that they had several members that could give a message and they would be all standing and giving a message one after the other.....by the time there were three messages and no interpretation it becomes clear that there is no one to give an interpretation so anyone with a message should speak that to themselves so the service can continue on. The purpose of those tongues were meant to be shared by interpretation....

1Co 14:5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.
1Co 14:6 Now, brothers, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching?

1Co 14:9 So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air.

If someone is giving a message in tongues and nobody interprets after giving a message and by the time 2 or 3 have done so, if by that time there is no intepretation then they need to stop giving messages and move on.

That was not happening. Instead everyone was giving messages ...more than three of them...and it just went on and on. Nobody but the speakers was being edified as a result.

1Co 14:4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church.

Yet if each one prophesied then all the hearers would be edified

1Co 14:3 On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation.

Paul does NOT forbid praying with the spirit
1Co 14:12 So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.
1Co 14:13 Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret.
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.
1Co 14:15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.

Here Paul is essentially saying you can pray with the spirit but you need to pray with the mind also so others know when to say AMEN

1Co 14:15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.
1Co 14:16 Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say "Amen" to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying?
1Co 14:17 For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up.
1Co 14:18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.

Here is what Paul is trying to prevent
1Co 14:23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?

The WHOLE church to speak in tongues and there are outsiders. Imagine now...church gathers. One person stands up and speaks in a tongue...no interpretation in a language they all understand. Then another stands and speaks..and another...and another...and another...pretty soon the entire church just about has done this. Being a Pentecostal if I walked into a service like that and nobody was edifying the hearers in their own language I would have a problem too. From what Paul is saying THAT is what was happening.

The order here was about them all speaking in tongues and not just one by one....and nobody edifying in a language they understood....

And prophesying all at the same time and not rather one by one. One that receives a word should wait for the other to finish giving the word instead of interrupting.

[WyoPastor]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Baloney. What you are doing is taking the Corinthian example and ASSUMING this was occuring in ALL churches and Paul was sent to begin a new thing not done in all the churches....church order.

In fact that is false. Paul was not sent for THAT reason. He was sent to preach the gospel to the Gentiles. He was their apostle and so he wrote letters to each to help them. In one such instance he had to address the Corinthian church because of their excesses, abuses and tolerance of an individual found in sin. That was specific to the Corinthian church, not to all churches.

The ORDER he brought TO them was on their abuses of the gifts of the Spirit. Everyone wanted to stand up and give a message. But clearly not everyone can. So Paul said let it be by the most of 3.

I asked this already but you blew me off. How would someone know if there is no intepretor before hand? They would not. What you are not seeing is that they had several members that could give a message and they would be all standing and giving a message one after the other.....by the time there were three messages and no interpretation it becomes clear that there is no one to give an interpretation so anyone with a message should speak that to themselves so the service can continue on. The purpose of those tongues were meant to be shared by interpretation....

1Co 14:5 Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up.
1Co 14:6 Now, brothers, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching?

1Co 14:9 So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air.

If someone is giving a message in tongues and nobody interprets after giving a message and by the time 2 or 3 have done so, if by that time there is no intepretation then they need to stop giving messages and move on.

That was not happening. Instead everyone was giving messages ...more than three of them...and it just went on and on. Nobody but the speakers was being edified as a result.

1Co 14:4 The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church.

Yet if each one prophesied then all the hearers would be edified

1Co 14:3 On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation.

Paul does NOT forbid praying with the spirit
1Co 14:12 So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.
1Co 14:13 Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret.
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful.
1Co 14:15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.

Here Paul is essentially saying you can pray with the spirit but you need to pray with the mind also so others know when to say AMEN

1Co 14:15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.
1Co 14:16 Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say "Amen" to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying?
1Co 14:17 For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up.
1Co 14:18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.

Here is what Paul is trying to prevent
1Co 14:23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?

The WHOLE church to speak in tongues and there are outsiders. Imagine now...church gathers. One person stands up and speaks in a tongue...no interpretation in a language they all understand. Then another stands and speaks..and another...and another...and another...pretty soon the entire church just about has done this. Being a Pentecostal if I walked into a service like that and nobody was edifying the hearers in their own language I would have a problem too. From what Paul is saying THAT is what was happening.

The order here was about them all speaking in tongues and not just one by one....and nobody edifying in a language they understood....

And prophesying all at the same time and not rather one by one. One that receives a word should wait for the other to finish giving the word instead of interrupting.

Amen

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by SavedLou

oh and to add to a comment that this was only acceptable b/c they weren't in a church....um the church is not merely a building or a service. WE are the church. if the rules for the church were not to speak in tongues at all w/out an interpreter then it would have also applied to these 12 men who were ALL speaking in tongues together while receiving the HG for the first time.

Let me add with this and what you pointed out about the 120. I mentioned this to the Dr but he denies this was a church gathering....never mind they were the church and they were gathered.

They were praying together in one place and in one mind (unity)...sounds like church to me. And the inspired word says they were ALL filled and spoke in tongues....there was obviously no interpretation since the non-believers were confused as to what this meant, However this was more than three too....God filled them....God made that happen....as the Spirit gives utterance....Jesus TOLD them to wait for this to happen....IF the good Dr is right then God is the author of confusion and disorder....

I don't think he understands Acts or 1Cor and the point Paul was making

[papapraiz]

Respectfully, It appears to me that the early church met daily in the temple and from house to house.

Acts 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. KJV

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Dr. Vaughn

Praxaeus, you can play on words all you wish.. of course we are all the church.... but when you go to church this Sunday... are you not at the GATHERING of the SAINTS? That is the CHURCH I am referring to.

Please. Praxeas. Not Prasaeus. I am not playing on words. Second I never denied that on SUNDAY we are a gathering of the church. However we ALSO gather on Monday for a prayer meeting. We ALSO gather on Fri for a bible study and fellowship. We ALSO gather on Wed nights for bible study.

We gather...that is the point. Church MEETINGS are when the church MEETS to accomplish some purpose germane to the church. You want to limited that to strictly and ONLY what you have been asserting. But we can see from scriptures that they also gathered to PRAY and other things. You can't see the forest for the trees...as it were....you are looking through "Dr. Vaughn's" Rose colored glasses....you look at one instance in Acts where Paul was teaching all night long....you formed an argument from silence there because Luke never mentions if they worshiped or sang songs or whatever...

Then you assumed "that is what church should be like when they gather together and so the OTHER gatherings when they worshiped or prayed was not actually a church service"

That is what you are doing.

In the NT we see many instances of them gathering on the first day of the week for their weekly instructions in the WORD.. we see nothing more than the teaching of Gods Word.. the doctrines......

Again argument from silence.

Again, you ASSUME that a gathering on the first day of the week (actually we see that only once in Acts...where do you get the many from?) can be the ONLY time a church can gather and be considered a church meeting.

ASSUME....I am glad I am not assuming with you because then I would be the "me" in ASSUME. You have ASSUMED a lot of things here. You have selectively IGNORED the other times the church gathers by arbitration because it does not fit your paradigm.

again in perfect order.. he game the five fold minsitry not for the HYPING of the SAINTS or the REACHING of the SINNER but for one purpose "the perfecting of the saints"

He gave them to perfect the saints....excuse me but where did I or anyone else deny that? You keep repeating this ad nauseum as though someone disagreed but nobody did. Thus my assertion that you are attempting to put words in our mouths and form a strawman argument....Intellectual dishonestly is not what I would expect from a Dr....

Second all this tells us is the PURPOSE of the 5 fold ministry. It does NOT tell us that there should be no worship or praise or prayer or anything else in a church service. Nobody is denying the church needs perfecting OR edifying.

I'll never know why we use the local sanctuary as the place to reach sinners.. that is sooo backwards... the local church in the NT was NEVER USED for the evangelization of sinners.. but rather the maturing and training of the saints.. so the saints my go out and "do the work of the ministry" which is the spreading of the gospel

That is interesting when you consider that your argument relied heavily on Paul speaking to the Corinthians and Paul ALLOWED for there being visitors...the unlearned which assumes the uninitiated...INTO their meetings! WOW...are you keeping track of your own arguments here?

Second NOBODY here denies that the saints should be perfected in the local church meeting and then go out and evangelize....Once again you ASSUME way WAY too much and them FORCE it on us as though we said that or we do that or we agree. That is intellectual dishonesty.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by papapraiz

Respectfully, It appears to me that the early church met daily in the temple and from house to house.

Acts 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. KJV

They did...I pointed that out as well....and what were they doing? Praise God, eating their meat and breaking bread.

They gathered for many reasons. They also gathered NOT just in a house or in the temple but in the streets to evangelize and also in synagogues

[LadyRev]

Originally Posted by Dr. Vaughn

This is the Biblical guide for a proper NT church service that would be pleasing to the Lord....

#1 - No speaking in tongues were to be allowed without an audible interpretation:

If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in [those that are] unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

Sounds like a Pentecostal service to me............ everyone speaking in tongues at the same time all over the buildings or around the Altar.....Paul rebukes you and commands the churches of God not to participate in such childishness

# 2 - There should be Prophesying - is there Prophesying in each of your services in Pentecost?

But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or [one] unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

# 3 - Revealing of the secrets of peoples hearts should be revealed in the services - this is what Bro. Branham did and the Pentecostals said it was witchcraft --

And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on [his] face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

#4 - There should be limited music and singing

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm

#5 - There should be very limited speaking from among the congregation as in testimonies

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a Doctrine

# 6 - There should be very limited speaking in tongues

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a tongue

# 7 - Everything done in the service should be for the maturing of the body

Let all things be done unto edifying.

# 8 - No more than three messages in toungues should EVER be given, thus heavily discouraging the Pentecostal over use of tongues -

If any man speak in an [unknown] tongue, [let it be] by two, or at the most [by] three, and [that] by course; and let one interpret.

# 9 - There should never be tongues without an interpretation

and let one interpret.

#10 - There should be silence rather than tongues if there is no one used in the gift of interpretation

But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

#11 - There should be words of knowledge and wisdom.. and these should be judged before presented to the church

Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

#12 - You should be still and hold your peace

If [any thing] be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

#13 - The church is the place for learning

For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

#14 - There should be no out of control emotions... and the thinking that God has taken over you and you cannot help yourself

And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

#15 - There should be nothing that would look like confusion, nothing out of control, nothing fleshly

For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

#16 - The service should be a peaceful setting

For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

#17 - There should be no women bringing forth the Word of God

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

#18 - Finally, nothing should ever be fleshly or demonstrative -- nothing should be out of godly order

Let all things be done decently and in order

If your services do not operate by the above guide given to us by Paul...are we in rebellion to Gods Word?

Beyond a shadow of a doubt, the above is one of the finest examples of "cut and paste the scriptures" that I have ever read.

Someone should create an award for this. A graphic to display proudly here at AFF.

Originally Posted by SavedLou

first of all it's sister, not brother but to answer your question, of COURSE we must have order and start to mature. but in my opinion paul's directions in corinthians were to the church there who were not doing things orderly or as they had already been established throughout the NT. the upper room experience of 120 people receiving the HG, speaking in tongues as a worship experience or those praying to themselves in tongues is totally different than 1 or 2 giving a clear, direct message to the church. and when THIS is done at our church, yes of course there is an interpreter.

Wait a second Lou, I think perhaps you and I have a total different understanding of the 120 in the upper room at Pentecost....

You seem to be implying that this looked like a "modern day" Pentecostal service with everyone standing around praising God in unknown tongues all at the same time"

My understanding is that NOTHING like that happened at all.....

If we look closely we see that these people were sent to Jerusalem to preach the gospel to the NATIONS OF THE WORLD,,, beginning at Jerusalem... this was an impossible feat for 120 people to reach the known world.. and with all the language barriers it just could not be done....

They asked Jesus.. How are we going to fulfill this comission.. he told them to go to Jerusalem and wait for the "ability from on high"... which they did..

Once the Holy Ghost delivered this ability to them they immediatly began speaking " in other foreign languages" THEY WERE NOT SPEAKING IN PENTECOSTAL STYLE tongues,.... as we see in the Pentecostal churches today....

Immediately they began telling the "wonderful works of God in every known languages"

They were not IN PRAISE talking to God,, they were TELLING THE WORKS OF GOD in foreign languages.....

Paul tells us that if someone is speaking in tongues they were speaking unto God... these people at Pentecost were not speaking to God, they were speaking to MEN about the wonderful works of God in earthly foreign languages