Your experience when you dropped "dress standards"

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by AbundantGrace

The first standard that I gave up was long sleeves and I'm so grateful that I did, because it's so hot this time of year. Of course, when we retreated from the man made, so-called "Holiness Standards" which have no holiness in them at all, we were talked about, judged, called names and literally black-balled throughout the ranks of Pentecost, because we had suddenly believed the damnable lies of the enemy and we were rejecting truth. However, I've come to realize that we actually found truth, when we abandoned the lies of the UPC Legalistic Standards as a means to achieve holiness and began living lives that were totally surrendered and dependent upon Christ for our holiness. Today, we dress and live modestly, not as a means to BE HOLY, but because through Christ, we ARE HOLY.

And I know that I'll be deemed as an angry, bitter ex-UPCer and that's fine. I've been called everything you can imagine by many in those ranks, so I can handle it. I'm not bitter at all. I can't allow myself to be. However, there is something that I want to say since you started this self-righteous thread.

In UPC people's salvation state is judged by others mostly based upon their appearance. If a woman suddenly comes to church and her hair is trimmed, she has on any jewelry, a little bit of make-up, God forbid a pair of pants, she's backslidden and needs to get into the altar quickly so she can get pushed and shoved and spat upon, as she repents and gets saved AGAIN. Yet, that same woman, can look just right... Having all the standards perfected and be in the crowd of self-righteous Pharisees, judging someone else who's not LIVING RIGHT, yet she's deemed OK. I know you'll deny it, but it's the truth no matter what you say. Just the nature of the title of this thread alone, is of that same Pharisee spirit.

Jesus Christ came into this world to save us, because there was absolutely no way that we could even come close to saving ourselves. If we could have, then He came and suffered and died in vain. At the Cross, JESUS TRULY PAID IT IN FULL!!! There is nothing, outside of that work that can save our souls. Keeping "HOLINESS STANDARDS" is a joke! Those things have absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether or not you're saved. Keeping them or not keeping them is NOT a reflection of your heart either. The Bible says that out of the mouth comes the abundance of your heart. If you want to examine your heart as a Christian, simply listen to what's coming out of your mouth. If you're judging everyone else and condemning them for their shortcomings or whatever, that's a pretty good indicator that something's not right in your own heart.

For it is by Grace that you have been saved and this not of yourselves. For it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast. It's ONLY by the unearned favor of God, through the finished work of Christ at the Cross that any of us can be saved. It is not based upon our own works or the lack thereof, but it's based on His work alone.

Salvation comes through the Cross alone. Our works are not FOR salvation, but BECAUSE OF salvation. If you preach the Cross plus anything else as a means of salvation, you're in error. It's the Cross plus nothing.

So again to answer the question, my long sleeves was the first to go, then I grew some facial hair. My wife is now a cosmetologist... Her hair is cut, she wears make-up, pants, jewelry and even colors her hair sometime. Yet, we've never been closer to the Lord in all of our lives. When we got rid of man-made religion, then the real relationship with Christ became the focal point.

God bless you all and please know that I do not mean to be unkind at all. I'm simply sharing my experience as a man who was in UPC for 36 years and has been out for 4. Thank God for the Blood of Jesus.

Where in the world did this come from?? I think all that know me here will vouch that I am not self righteous. I simply thought this would be a good thread, and was interested as to how different folks decided to leave, for whatever reason, the dress standards that they had been taught. And btw - I am not, nor will I ever be, UPCI.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

Most of this is good. I am not too sure that Matt meant this thread as as selfrighteous one but could be. I agree with most all that you have said. I do however believe that alot still in the UPC do not believe the extra-biblical stuff, but follow it out of fear or acceptance. However there are people that cry at night cause there are people that follow most of the teaching but they are 'going to hell' cause they do not follow a dress code. That is nuts in my eys, but I would say that most are genuine in their faith. Though they are taught extra biblical teachings. I do have a hard time calling it a lie. I don't see how something can be a lie if the person telling believes it to be truth. They are better considered wrong, mislead, or whatever, but to say they are telling a lie that is a stretch for me.

Thanks for "almost" believing in me.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Where in the world did this come from?? I think all that know me here will vouch that I am not self righteous. I simply thought this would be a good thread, and was interested as to how different folks decided to leave, for whatever reason, the dress standards that they had been taught. And btw - I am not, nor will I ever be, UPCI.

Remember what James Bond said!

[AbundantGrace]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Where in the world did this come from?? I think all that know me here will vouch that I am not self righteous. I simply thought this would be a good thread, and was interested as to how different folks decided to leave, for whatever reason, the dress standards that they had been taught. And btw - I am not, nor will I ever be, UPCI.

Please accept my most sincere apologies. If that be the case, then it's definitely my mistake and I do apologize to you for the implication. Yet, the meat of the statement is correct.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Thanks for "almost" believing in me.

Anytime. I knew that this was not a selfrighteous thing, but that was also me assumption still had to hear it from you.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Kae

If you are raised from a child that it is wrong to wear pants is it a conviction or a learned behavior or any standard?

How can I answer that question? Each person needs to search the scripture and talk to God about their concerns. If you are unsure whether something is a conviction or just a "tradition", then you need to pray and study about it until you ARE sure.

Furthermore, it isn't bad to keep something or adhere to a rule or standard just because its nothing more than that--a rule or standard. Manmade, no less.

[GraceAmazing]

Originally Posted by Kae

If you are raised from a child that it is wrong to wear pants is it a conviction or a learned behavior or any standard?

This here is a good question!! I have often wondered this myself because I was raised UPC and all things were wrong AND it was wrong to even question it. So, I asked someone recently this question regarding another standard concern and this is the answer I received (maybe it'll help). If you are concerned with what others will think of you, then that is condemnation. If you are totally mortified and deeply concerned about what GOD thinks of you, that's conviction.

That being said, that probably won't totally answer your question, because in reality, you have to study this out for yourself and come to your own spiritually guided conclusion.

I agree with Miss Bratt (oh, I think that's the right name). It's never wrong to continue to follow what you have been taught, regardless if it's man-made or scripture mandated. However, if you are in a serious questioning mode, you'd best buy a few good commentaries and grab about four or five different Biblical translations and find you a good designated prayer spot in your home and get to work! Not to mention, don't buy any groceries for a while, cause you'll be doing some serious fasting.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Ferd

What I want to know is if anyone first dropped standards then decided the W/S doctrine was wrong.

Ferd, another thread was started to answer this question and discuss W/S.

See Water/Spirit thread.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by GraceAmazing

This here is a good question!! I have often wondered this myself because I was raised UPC and all things were wrong AND it was wrong to even question it. So, I asked someone recently this question regarding another standard concern and this is the answer I received (maybe it'll help). If you are concerned with what others will think of you, then that is condemnation. If you are totally mortified and deeply concerned about what GOD thinks of you, that's conviction.

This is a good illustration. My only caveat would be that God is concerned about people, therefore we should also be concerned with people, e.g., not being offensive to others in the way we present ourselves or behave.

That doesn't mean we have to be SO concerned about what others think that we place ourselves in bondage to their opinions and private interpretations--just that we should be considerate and presentable.

I think when we give others' opinions too much weight, then we can place ourselves under condemnation. We should rather place ourselves under God's authority. He'll ultimately require much harder things than a longer skirt hem.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

This is a good illustration. My only caveat would be that God is concerned about people, therefore we should also be concerned with people, e.g., not being offensive to others in the way we present ourselves or behave.

That doesn't mean we have to be SO concerned about what others think that we place ourselves in bondage to their opinions and private interpretations--just that we should be considerate and presentable.

I think when we give others' opinions too much weight, then we can place ourselves under condemnation. We should rather place ourselves under God's authority. He'll ultimately require much harder things than a longer skirt hem.

I agree. Scientist have done studies that show that if a homan believes certain thing is wrong or good it is because of what they are taught or what they have learned for watching their parents. They went into decsriptions of examples. If a child is not taught that an iron or stove eye is hot and it hurts to touch then they have a greater chance of touching it. If they are not taught that garbage stinks then they have a greater chance of thinking that it does not stink. Follow the pattern?

This could also be said of teaching standards and other beliefs. If one is raised by a U.C. OP then they can have a greater chance of being fearful of change when it comes to standards and other teachings. I believe that it can be either a conviction from God by the later stage in life or it could be the fear of God in a negative way. Of course that is not to say that they would not go the opposite way ala Kings of Leon. Even though I was taught to search it for myself it was tough to finally make the step because of the ringing in my head of preachers over the years. But God's word, scriptural and verbal won out.