Baptism, DOES IT REALLY WASH AWAY SIN??

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

Here is a simple question if someone repents does God forgive of their sins yes or no ?

Fully and entirely ... he doesn't require an extra spin cycle.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

I read the story again and I don't see that Paul did repent on the road. It certainly doesn't say that he did.

Realy?

How about Paul's response to "Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks."

And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?


And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Paul went into the city as he was commanded of the Lord and fasted! His obedience and his fasting are signs of a repentant heart. But the immediate response of "Lord, what wilt thou have me to do" shows an change of heart along with the trembling and astonishment.

What do you expect from someone who repents?

[1Corinth2v4]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Sir,

I believe you are aware that most 1 steppers believe we can only be regenerated by God's Spirit. You have confuse the empowerment and subsequent fillings of God's Spirit w/ a one time filling. That which is dead must be quickened to life in order to show fruit which meet repentance.

I will kindly request you open a thread ... on this matter directing it to the whole community ... although it too has been beaten to death.

This thread is about washing of sins.

I'd be very careful if I was you.

[Scott Hutchinson]

I'm just trying to be honest with the word and not side with a group,because God's word is always true whereas a group can be in error.
If I'm rejected by men so be it.I'm more interested in God's favour.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by 1Corinth2v4

I'd be very careful if I was you.

Okay ... carefully start your thread ... and the community will carefully answer ... including yours truly.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Realy?

How about Paul's response to "Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks."

And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?


And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Paul went into the city as he was commanded of the Lord and fasted! His obedience and his fasting are signs of a repentant heart. But the immediate response of "Lord, what wilt thou have me to do" shows an change of heart along with the trembling and astonishment.

What do you expect from someone who repents?

Who denies that a repentant heart will show the fruit of faith ... Mizpeh ... we are not discussing the need to be baptized as a commandment or responding through faith... but rather this notion that baptism washes sin ...

Moreover, that it must have the proper articulations for it to be efficacious.

Keep your head in the game, please. No red herrings ... no no rabbit trails.

[LUKE2447]

I go to lunch come back and BAM! Thread explodes! LOL!!

Daniel alicea if you do not believe that baptism is for the remission of sins please answer my question on the first page in my last two posts.

When is the blood applied. Where in the Bible does it say the blood is applied. Yes Remission or forgiveness is a result of the blood and those point to baptism IMO but at what point does the Word say the blood is applied.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Realy?

How about Paul's response to "Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks."

And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?


And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Paul went into the city as he was commanded of the Lord and fasted! His obedience and his fasting are signs of a repentant heart. But the immediate response of "Lord, what wilt thou have me to do" shows an change of heart along with the trembling and astonishment.

What do you expect from someone who repents?

"to really know" LOL! per "onesteppers leading folks to christ thread" J/K

I agree Mizpeh these texts tear apart the mental model of faith only advocates. It doesn't work nor can it. Just like Acts 19 and Pauls question cannot fit into the mental model framework of faith only believers. Also it doesn't fit into with Abraham as he never came into covenant without a response to God of what to do thus was justified by faith(obediance).

[SDG]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

I go to lunch come back and BAM! Thread explodes! LOL!!

Daniel alicea if you do not believe that baptism is for the remission of sins please answer my question on the first page in my last two posts.

When is the blood applied. Where in the Bible does it say the blood is applied. Yes Remission or forgiveness is a result of the blood and those point to baptism IMO but at what point does the Word say the blood is applied.

Great question ... most traditional Water and Spirit 3 stepper OPs can't make up their minds even on this important topic ... WHAT COULD BE MORE IMPORTANT THAN TO KNOW WHEN THE BLOOD IS APPLIED.


Bernie Gillespie has a comprehensive 4 page article examining the historical evolution of Pentecostals as it applies to their theology on when the blood is applied ... and also answers this question here ...

http://www.inchristalone.org/WhenBloodAppliedpt1.html


Here is a taste of the confusing answers you will get from some within our movement:

Thank God, there are still churches where the message of the Cross and the language of the blood of Jesus is esteemed and adored. These churches are to be commended and encouraged for their convictions. Yet, even among these churches, there are Christians who seem to lack Hoffman’s clarity. While they would fight for the use of the blood in their hymnals and preaching, they are not clear as to what it means. For example, I recently read a column in a magazine1 where ministers were interviewed as to the question: “When is the blood of Jesus applied?” I was amazed at the disparity and confusion in their answers.

Here are some of those statements:

The application of the blood is not a one-time event.

Without the blood of Jesus, none of the steps we take in salvation would be efficacious. Forgiveness comes at repentance through His blood; sins are washed away at baptism through his blood.

The blood is applied through the entire new birth process.

The blood is applied when you repent, but I don’t believe it’s fully applied until you’re baptized in Jesus’ name. The reason some people get the Holy Ghost before baptism is because God honors their reaching out to Him in the process of repentance; you might say they get it on credit.

. . . the purging of the conscience takes place at baptism by the blood. The reason some people receive the Holy Ghost before baptism is because Jesus said that the one requirement for being filled is to be hungry.

I believe Scripture backs up the fact that the blood of Jesus is applied at baptism. . . . His blood is shed “for remission of sins.[”] This would seem to link baptism and Jesus’ blood together in the work of remission of sins. . . . If remission comes by baptism, then blood and baptism seem to be connected in their work. . . . repentance symbolizes death. However, the Bible says that life, not death, is in the blood. Finally, the blood is not applied when we receive the Holy Ghost, because this is the Gift that comes as a result of the work of atonement having been done.

Without the shedding of blood is no remission of sin. And we know from Acts 2:38 that both repentance and baptism are connected with the work of remission. And I think the culminating experience of receiving the Holy Ghost is a continuation of that blood flowing.

Finally, the view expressed by the editors was given:

In addition to our traditional way of thinking of salvation as a three-step process, we can also think of it as having two key aspects: God’s provision and our appropriation. In Acts 2:38, “for the remission of sin” is not tied to just baptism, but also to “repent and be baptized.” Together, these constitute our appropriation of God’s grace in our lives. Neither of those steps by itself completes the work of remission of sins. Only when a person first repents (turns away from sin) and then seals that commitment through baptism are sins remitted through Jesus’ shed blood.

These comments were taken from interviews of ministers of the United Pentecostal Church. These quotations reveal the UCPI’s general obscurity about the meaning and purpose of the blood of Jesus in the Atonement. They all hold to some notion that we must do certain things in order to appropriate the blood of Jesus. They are not in agreement as to how that is done. Some see the “blood applied” in repentance. Others believe it is only partially applied in repentance and is completed in baptism. Some say it is applied in both repentance and water baptism, but not as part of Spirit reception. Yet others say that the blood is applied in Spirit reception. Why such a discrepancy? This divergence of opinion obscures the vital purpose of the atoning blood of Jesus in God’s plan. It also reveals a lack of understanding of the meaning of the blood of Jesus in the Atonement.

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[SDG]

I agree w / the following writer as to the who, when and where the blood is applied:

http://www.inchristalone.org/WhenBloodAppliedpt4.html


To simplify, to bring atonement for the nation of Israel, the High Priest Aaron, on the Day of Atonement had to take the blood of the sacrifice into the Most Holy Place (the place representing God’s throne room) and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat (the place of atonement). This is an Old Covenant picture of what Jesus Christ does to achieve atonement under the New Covenant. It also gives a graphic answer to the next three questions: “Who applies the Blood?,” “Where is the blood applied?” and “When is the blood applied?”

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Who Applies the Blood?

We know that Jesus is the “Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world” (John 1:29,36). It is His blood that is shed for the forgiveness of our sins (Ephesians 1:7; 1 Peter 1:18; 1 John 1:7; Revelation 1:5). We are justified by the blood of Jesus (Romans 5:9). But, Jesus is also the Great High Priest who applies the blood (Hebrew 9:7-12). He shed His blood on Golgotha and thereby applied it by dying on the Cross (Colossians 1:20; Hebrews 13:12). The effect of the blood is the effect of Jesus’ death (Hebrews 9:16-18). Because of His death in our place, he suffered the penalty of sin(1 Peter 2:24). But, because He was perfect in obedience, he cannot remain dead (Acts 2:24-28). God justifies Jesus, by raising Him from the dead (1 Timothy 3:16). Then Christ is taken up into Heaven by God, because He had finished His purpose on the earth (John 16:10-28; John 19:30; Hebrews 10:12-13). Now, as the ascended Lord of the Church, he acts as our Great High Priest. He ever lives to make intercession for us (Hebrews 2:17-18; 7:25-27). He presents his own sacrifice eternally to the Father on our behalf (Revelation 13:8). It is Jesus, the Great High Priest who applies the blood.

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Where is the Blood Applied?

There is a sense that the pattern of activities performed by the high priest under the Tabernacle/Temple system are fulfilled in Christ’s priestly ministry. The High Priest entered the Holy of Holies on the Day of Atonement, bearing the blood of the congregational sacrifice. There he would sprinkle the blood of the bull on the mercy seat or place of atonement to reconcile Israel to God. Jesus the true and only Sacrifice, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, ascended into Heaven as the Great High Priest, bearing His own blood on Himself, because He was the true mercy seat (hilasmos). Paul says, “Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;” (Romans 3:25 KJV).

The word “propitiation” is hilasterion. It is the word translated “mercyseat” in Hebrews 9:5. Jesus is called the mercy seat, the hilasterion, the propitiation, the place of atonement. There is no greater place to “apply” the blood than on Jesus himself. Jesus, as the Great High Priest, applies the blood. He uses the Cross like the priests hyssop and sprinkles the people with salvation. Jesus, makes the Cross the seat of mercy since he is the propitiation or the mercy seat. This is where the blood is applied.

This is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

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When is the Blood Applied?

Rather than ask “When is the blood applied?” we should ask when was the penalty for sin paid. The Bible teaches us that it was paid by Jesus when he died. It also tells us where Jesus died – He died on the Cross. It is when Jesus died that the blood was applied. Hebrews is emphatic that Jesus presents himself as an atoning sacrifice once.

For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another – He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Hebrews 9:24-28 NKJV) This means his death takes place at a particular moment of history. He died once. There was only one sacrifice for all time. Thus, his blood was shed once, for all time. It was applied once for all time two thousand years ago outside the city wall of Jerusalem on the Cross of Calvary. It only needs to be applied once because “by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.” (Hebrews 10:14 ESV). The blood was applied once for all time on the Cross. This one shedding of Jesus blood is sufficient to take away the sins of the whole world, and more, to cleanse the Heaven itself (Hebrews 9:24).

Jesus as the Lamb and as the High Priest presented his blood – His proof of death on the Cross. As he hung on the Roman stake with his blood running down his body and onto the ground He was presenting his offering. It was upon His death that Jesus cried, “It is finished!” The wrath of God was satisfied. The penalty was paid. The veil of separation was rent. All this happened because Jesus died for us. And Jesus’ blood is the proof of it.