No Thanks, I Will Stay Old Time Pentecost

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Yes but you said it is not a work.
That does not tell me why "fruits of the spirit" are not works is a bad thing


The bible simply states "not by works" that we are saved. It does not designate "work of our own as he is the author of the work"...at this point now the entire discussion is getting confusing because I said not saved by works, you disagreed yet now you are saying they are not works....but works as you have used it is anything at all we can do. What is the definition of works? I say anything you can do apart from the gospel.


That's still in your own words a WORK, but Paul says NOT BY WORKS. WORKS do not and can not save us. Works being defined as something WE do, regardless of the reason it is still something WE do


if obedience to the gospel saves you then obedience to the gospel are NOT works. Works are not defined as anything you can do, rather that is an evangelical definition.


Again the bible simply says "not by works"...not "not by works not brought forth as a response to this or that".


Responding to the gospel by faith is NOT works.


yet paul says we can not be saved by works. Here you just defined what the word works means but the bible plainly states.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

No, everything we do is not a work.


Since I have yet to deny we must obey the will of God this does not really enhance the discussion on what a work is


non sequitor. Nor is that true. Just because I assert that the definition of the word WORKS is anything you can do apart from the gospel and therefore works do NOT save us, does NOT NOT NOT mean I assert we are not to obey God. In fact my entire point is that we HAVE to OBEY the gospel to be saved. WORKS are things we can do apart from the gospel.



Again, irrelevant to this discussion. You are just preaching to the choir


I don't Deny we are to have a proper response. I deny that is what the word WORKS refers to.


No. Fruits of the Spirit are NOT works, they are the by product of His Spirit working in us and changing us


Again irrelevant. Works, defined by you is anything YOU or I can do. You then said "in response", however the bible says we are NOT saved by works. That is the WHOLE point, reconciling doctrine with bible. Yes we must obey the gospel. NO works do not save us. WORKS can not save us...Paul said that. He said we are saved by faith. WORKS are the continued things we do for God, apart for the gospel "responses" we must obey.

The word works does not mean simply just "anything we can do". Works and the fruit of the Spirit are the result of BEING saved. We do good works because we have been transformed. We produce the fruit of the Spirit because we have His Spirit in us changing us


So this proves that at least one one case when paul speaks of works the definition of works is not "anything you can do", but those things prescribed under the law


this is the second time now I explain this. When I said works of the flesh I was contrasting them to the fruit of the Spirit as Paul did. Paul did this, not me. See gal 5

.

Again the fault here is your miss apply the term of works. I had written 3 pages of a response to this and I probably will still post it but I think it would be better to give you anothers perspective on this that might explain what I am trying to convey.

Saved By Works
The Bible clearly teaches that we cannot be saved by good works. And the Bible also clearly teaches we cannot be saved without good works. This is a notorious "contradiction," but it is only an apparent one. The tension is usually resolved by speaking of works that precede salvation and works that follow salvation. In other words, we cannot be saved by good deeds done prior to conversion, but we must produce righteous works after conversion as the fruit of salvation. Another common explanation is that we cannot be saved by the works of the Law of Moses, the sacrifices and services of the Old Covenant Temple; but we shall be judged by the good works we produce after we are baptized into the New Covenant and fulfill the Law of Christ. Both explanations have a certain truth to them, but I think there is something deeper at work here.
It seems to me that Scripture is teaching us that the works by which we are judged are the works of God in Christ through the Spirit in us. Thus, the works that are accepted in God's sight at the Judgment are the righteous works of Christ in us. Our good works cannot be our good works at all. Our good works must be the good works of Christ in us by the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit. We cannot present our fleshly righteousness—before conversion or after conversion—before God, for the works of man are done in the power of man to the glory of man. The works of Christ within us are done by the power of God to the glory of God. And of course, in a sense, this carries further both points of view mentioned above. The works of Christ in us certainly are the righteous works that follow conversion and are the works that accompany New Covenant salvation. The work of Christ in us is neither our own pre-conversion self-righteousness nor a Judaistic preservation of Old Covenant works.The key verse is in Philippians 1 where we are told to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God that works in us." Here lies the answer to the problem. We work out our own salvation as God works in us. It is not so much a matter of timing, before or after conversion. Neither is it merely a matter of Old and New Covenant. It is a matter of works done by man to the glory of man vs. works done by God to the glory of God. Are our good works flowing out of human strength? Then, those works cannot save us no matter when they are done. Are our works flowing out the power of the Holy Spirit? Then we shall be judged by those works—the works of Christ in us—and we shall be saved by those works. As Paul says elsewhere, the works of man shall be burned up whereas the works of the Spirit shall endure (I Co 3).
The bottom line? We must be filled with the Spirit.

BY STEVE PIXLER

In the above article I would reference my points. It is who's work. My response to his Spirit is clearly FAITH! It also works but not unto myself but through the leading of the Spirit. Are we saved by works? Yes! The questions is WHO'S!

Faith is a matter of context of the Word delivered! You cannot separate faith and works! If you want to use mental assent as faith then we are not talking about the same thing. Without Faith(proper response) it is impossible to please God.