Camouflage Oneness on your website

[Sherri]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

My question about #2 is this, is there anything in the wording that a Oneness person would take issue with?

Saying "three personalities" doesn't seem like it would go over in a Oneness group. I don't believe in three personalities - that sounds like they are different mindsets - and I'm sure not a typical Oneness person.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Maybe the above statement is what is happening with some of the language that you find on Oneness churches’ websites that seem more ambiguous than in the past. I already posted two examples last night but I will post them again and contrast them with a more in your face style.

I think the idea is not to shock people with anti-Trinitarian verbiage when they visit the website rather than a further defining of the Oneness in terms of itself rather than as a response to the Trinitarian doctrine.

First example
God
We believe in the one ever-living, eternal God: infinite in power, holy in nature, attributes and purpose; and possessing absolute, indivisible deity. This one true God has revealed Himself as Father, through His Son in redemption, and as the Holy Spirit dwelling within us.

Jesus Christ
We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, born of a virgin; that he lived a sinless life, was crucified on Calvary for our sins, and bodily rose from the grave; and that he has been exalted to the throne of God where He is the only mediator between God and man. We believe that through his death and life we have personal salvation and power for victorious living.

The Holy Spirit
We believe that the Holy Spirit is active in the world today and that the baptism of the Holy Spirit, with the initial evidence of speaking with other tongues, along with His accompanying gifts, is the privilege of all New Testament believers.
http://www.capitalcommunity.org/222048.ihtml

Second example
God
God is the Creator and the Ruler of the Universe. He has eternally existed in three personalities: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The three are equal and are one God.

Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is equal with God the Father. Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary by miraculous conception, lived a sinless human life and offered Himself as the perfect sacrifice for the sins of all people by dying on a cross. He rose from the dead after three days to demonstrate His power over sin and death. He ascended to Heaven's glory and will return someday to earth to reign as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

The Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is equal with the Father and the Son of God. He is present in the world to make people aware of their need for Jesus Christ. He also lives in every Christian from the moment of salvation. He provides the Christian with power for living a life of faith, understanding spiritual truth, and guidance in doing what is right. He gives every believer at least one spiritual gift when they are saved. As Christians, we seek to live under His control daily.

http://www.necclife.org/faithstatement.html

Third example – this is the more in your face notice particularly the last “we believe” begins with we believe and quickly follows it up with “is not” rather than an affirmative statement it is in the negative.
WE BELIEVE... There is only one God (Deuteronomy 6:4). He is the Creator of heaven and earth, and of all living beings. He has revealed Himself to humanity as the Father (Creator), in the Son (Savior), and as the Holy Ghost (the indwelling Spirit).

WE BELIEVE... God is a Spirit (John 4:24). He is the Eternal One, the Creator of all things, and the Father of all humanity by creation. He is the First and the Last, and beside Him there is no God (Isaiah 44:6). There was no God formed before Him; neither shall be there any after Him (Isaiah 43:10).

WE BELIEVE... Jesus is the Son of God according to the flesh (Romans 1:3) and the very God Himself according to the Spirit (Matthew 1:23). Jesus is the Christ (Matthew 16:16); the Creator of all things (Colossians 1:16-17); God with us (Matthew 1:23); God made flesh (John 1:1-14); God manifested in the flesh (I Timothy 3:16); He which was, which is, and which is to come, the Almighty (Revelation 1:8); the mighty God, everlasting Father, and Prince of peace (Isaiah 9:6).
Jesus Himself testified of His identity as God when He said, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:7-11) and "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30).

WE BELIEVE... The Holy Ghost is not a third person in the Godhead, but rather the Spirit of God (the Creator), the Spirit of the resurrected Christ. The Holy Ghost comes to dwell in the hearts and lives of everyone who believes and obeys the Gospel, as the Comforter, Sustainer, and Keeper (John 14:16-26; Romans 8:9-11).
http://www.atchurch.org/index.php?op...d=37&Itemid=91


What do you all say, (or "y'all" for those in the south, or "you guys" for those on the west coast or...)

When I first read the second example, I thought the same thing - it's undeniably trinitarian.

However, upon reading it more closely, I can see that there are certain and distinct differences, such as "personalities" instead of "persons".

The reference to the Holy Spirit as "he" would ruffle most Oneness folks' feathers, but Jesus Himself referred to his Father as "He" and also the Holy Spirit as "he".

So, Biblically, I see nothing in the second example that's awry.

And, yes, I agree with everyone else, third example leaves no doubt, lol.!

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

My question about #2 is this, is there anything in the wording that a Oneness person would take issue with?

Three eternally existing personalities in the Godhead. I take offence to it because I believe there is ONE GOD.

That is the ENTIRE argument between Oneness and Trinity.

The Holy Spirit is equal to the Father and Son? The Spirit is NOT a distinct person apart from the Father and the Son.

These are full fledged Trinitarian teachings.

[Michael The Disciple]

Michael Phelps

When I first read the second example, I thought the same thing - it's undeniably trinitarian.

However, upon reading it more closely, I can see that there are certain and distinct differences, such as "personalities" instead of "persons".

The problem with this is "eternally existing" persons. If there are 3 co equal eternally existing PERSONALITIES in the Godhead its time for Oneness Churches to close up shop, repent and go away.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Three eternally existing personalities in the Godhead. I take offence to it because I believe there is ONE GOD.

That is the ENTIRE argument between Oneness and Trinity.

The Holy Spirit is equal to the Father and Son? The Spirit is NOT a distinct person apart from the Father and the Son.

These are full fledged Trinitarian teachings.

The main difference in Trinity and Oneness teachings, at least in my experience, has been the existence of the person of Jesus Christ before Bethlehem.

The Bible clearly states that Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation, as you well know. Maybe this is the "personality" this church refers to, the "logos".

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The problem with this is "eternally existing" persons. If there are 3 co equal eternally existing PERSONALITIES in the Godhead its time for Oneness Churches to close up shop, repent and go away.

Do you believe that the Word existed prior to the incarnation? I think the use of the term personalities would be objected to upon close reading by Trinitarians. I think you read with the glasses of Oneness theology.

[HappyTown]

At this point, I think one made need a Lawyer to tag along with them to church! Word scrabble

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Actually the second one is also a Oneness church. With what do you take issue on the second one?

In my opinion, the first and second could be used by both trinitarians and oneness. One problem with the second is that God eternally exists in three personalities. Some oneness would not like to say "eternally" and "three personalities" in the same breath. Other oneness folks may not have a problem with the wording. There is diversity among Oneness people. Some believe the "Son" is only a "body of flesh" while others believe the "Son" is "God in a body of flesh," and others believe that for as long as we have a recorded history of God's dealing with mankind, God existed as an invisible Spirit and at times was seen in a visible form called the Angel of YHWH, the Memra, the Word, or ha Kavod (glory of the Messiah) and also was active in and upon people as the Holy Spirit or Spirit of the Lord. There may be other explanations by Oneness folks that do not fall into these categories.

Often if you talk to trinitarians you would be surprised at how close many oneness and trinitarian folks are in how they see God. Where we (both trinitarians and oneness) run into problems is when we try to explain, argue, or understand certain ways God is spoken of or described in the Scriptures.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Sherri

Saying "three personalities" doesn't seem like it would go over in a Oneness group. I don't believe in three personalities - that sounds like they are different mindsets - and I'm sure not a typical Oneness person.

Many years ago I had a UPC preacher say to me, "I don't believe in three persons but I believe in three personalities." He later became a Dist. Supt. with the UPC.

Sheesh Sam....you got me all freaked out with your new Avatar!