Paganism in Christianity

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by U376977

The problem with this belief is that it begs the question, Why stop with Christmas and Easter? Lets take “dominion” over the African customs as well. Lets redeem cutting of the flesh, only do it the palms and feet—to remember Christ’s wounds. Lets redeem worship fires, lets dance around fires remembering that Christ redeemed us from hell. Baby sacrifice? Let’s ritualize it with a fake sacrifice—remembering the sacrifice the Father made of Jesus Christ.
You understand the point? In practice, the “take dominion” theory does not hold up.

Bro, that’s all silly and nothing but a “spirit of fear”. Right now as we speak African peoples are dancing in traditional garb once worn in their pagan culture, not dancing to honor their tribal spirits but to honor Christ. Yes, they are even playing instruments once used in those pagan celebrations and singing in their language. And yes…the cutting of the flesh is something that can be redeemed, not in practice, but in understanding. Every culture can testify that man can only be cleansed by the shedding of blood. Their ancestors lived in darkness shedding their own blood without a redeemer to shed his blood for them. But here’s the good news….the redeemer has come! They no longer have to walk in darkness shedding their own blood in the hopes that it will “somehow” purify them from their inner pain and sinfulness. They can rest now, knowing that Jesus shed his own blood for them and that they are now FREE! I pray they NEVER forget the darkness their ancestors practiced and how they mutilated themselves in vain efforts to please the creator. I pray whenever they hear of those practices they breathe a sigh of peace knowing that Jesus shed his own blood for them ONCE AND FOR ALL. It might even make a neat church sign logo, hands scared from cutting the flesh raised toward the cross. And as for worship fires, sure, raise that fire remembering how they longed for the fire of God’s presence in the days of their darkness…and testify around that fire that the real FIRE has FALLEN from HEAVEN upon them in the BAPTISM OF THE HOLY GHOST. If they want to dance a jig because of that fire baptism around that fire, I say go ahead! GET DOWN FOR JESUS. If they want to raise their children high in the congregation for the preacher to bless them with a prayer that brings life instead of a sacrificial knife that brings death, offering their child as an offering to God I say…PRAISE THE LORD!

Fake sacrifices and reenactments can be compared to Christmas pageants in an ethnic context. It might be alien to you and me….but it might speak so deeply to their hearts you and I have no way of knowing.

My first pastor would travel to Ethiopia on occasion. One day I was in his office and noticed that behind his desk in the corner was a wooden statue of an African tribal warrior. I asked him the story behind the statue. He said it was given to him by a tribal chieftain. He explained that it was a warrior spirit that was called upon to protect villages and crops. It was a gift to him because the chieftain said that my pastor had the spirit of a spirit warrior because he took a stand against Hell to protect villages, families, and the blessings God had given. My pastor cherished that gift until the day he died. Was it an idol? Technically yes. Was it a sin to own it and share its story? Nope.

I was talking to the Addingtons, missionaries to New Zealand. If I remember correctly they were serving the Maori people and they have this custom of distorting their faces by bugging out their eyes, bearing their teeth, sticking their tongues out, crouching, screaming, and dancing violently before battle, called a hacka. While Bro. Addington was preaching he touched on the subject of declaring war against Hell and fighting Satan through the power of Jesus Christ. He said it was terrifying, the entire group of men sitting in the front bounded to their feet and began a tribal hacka while cursing and binding Satan in the name of Jesus. Bro. Addington thought for a moment that they all had been possessed and were going to attack him! LOL But they ran around that meeting and it broke into a massive tribal hacka blowout service! And many Maori got the Holy Ghost. Give God praise!

Bro….you’re view of what’s “Christian” is filtered by what you know living in a Western culture heavily influenced by English customs, norms, and manners. I’m fully convinced that Heaven will see every tribe, nation, kindred and tongue praising God in their own language, with their own dance, with their own customs, with their own words of adoration, with their own music, and if our resurrected bodies ever wear anything other than white robes in eternity, I’m even convinced they’ll wear the garb of their culture in praise around the throne. I believe it will be a global praise of adoration that brings tears to my eyes just thinking about it. Let the Irish river dance for Jesus, the Maori hacka for Jesus, let the Tutu throw spears after church for Jesus….

Oooo….I feel the Holy Ghost as I’m typing this….here’s a song running through my head right now…

There's a growing root of bitterness
In the world today
From the heart of Johannesburg
To the ghettos of L.A.

A swelling violent undertow
Has gripped the soul of man
But an integrated cry of hope
Echoes across the land

I hear my brothers say
Come, everybody, it's time to start
To let the love of Jesus
In your heart

Every tongue and every race
All of God's children seek His face

Praise the Lord, everybody, praise the Lord
Praise the Lord, everybody, praise the Lord

People of promise take your place
Tell of His mercy and His grace
Lift up your voice to the sky
All of God's children testify

Praise the Lord, everybody, praise the Lord
Praise the Lord, everybody, praise the Lord

We worship You because You are Lord and King
We magnify You because You are the One who reigns
We glorify You because You always remain the same

We worship You because You are Lord and King
We magnify You because You are the One who reigns
We glorify You because You always remain the same

Praise the Lord, everybody, praise the Lord
Praise the Lord, everybody, praise the Lord

We got no time for hit and miss
The world is full of prejudice
You know we just ain't down with this, so come on now
Everybody priase the Lord

He inhabits our praises
Sin He erases
He wants to amaze us, so say this
Everybody praise the Lord

Praise the Lord, everybody, praise the Lord (x4)

Everybody, praise the Lord (x6)

(Everybody Praise the Lord, performed by Carmen)

Bro….you need to open up, expand your vision, allow God to be BIGGER, and stop living life on the run, stop living life in fear. Live life in victory, dominion, celebration, and worship unto the King of All Kings. If some had their way we’d be secluded Pentecostal monks in some monastery somewhere. Living for Jesus would be like living on some sanctified version of Gilligan’s Island; no phone, no light, no motor car, not a single luxury. Like Pentecostal ascetics, as primitive as can be. lol

Originally Posted by U376977

At some point you have to stop "taking dominion."

Never.

[U376977]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Bro, that’s all silly and nothing but a “spirit of fear”. Right now as we speak African peoples are dancing in traditional garb once worn in their pagan culture, not dancing to honor their tribal spirits but to honor Christ. Yes, they are even playing instruments once used in those pagan celebrations and singing in their language. And yes…the cutting of the flesh is something that can be redeemed, not in practice, but in understanding. Every culture can testify that man can only be cleansed by the shedding of blood. Their ancestors lived in darkness shedding their own blood without a redeemer to shed his blood for them. But here’s the good news….the redeemer has come! They no longer have to walk in darkness shedding their own blood in the hopes that it will “somehow” purify them from their inner pain and sinfulness. They can rest now, knowing that Jesus shed his own blood for them and that they are now FREE! I pray they NEVER forget the darkness their ancestors practiced and how they mutilated themselves in vain efforts to please the creator. I pray whenever they hear of those practices they breathe a sigh of peace knowing that Jesus shed his own blood for them ONCE AND FOR ALL. It might even make a neat church sign logo, hands scared from cutting the flesh raised toward the cross. And as for worship fires, sure, raise that fire remembering how they longed for the fire of God’s presence in the days of their darkness…and testify around that fire that the real FIRE has FALLEN from HEAVEN upon them in the BAPTISM OF THE HOLY GHOST. If they want to dance a jig because of that fire baptism around that fire, I say go ahead! GET DOWN FOR JESUS. If they want to raise their children high in the congregation for the preacher to bless them with a prayer that brings life instead of a sacrificial knife that brings death, offering their child as an offering to God I say…PRAISE THE LORD!

Fake sacrifices and reenactments can be compared to Christmas pageants in an ethnic context. It might be alien to you and me….but it might speak so deeply to their hearts you and I have no way of knowing.

My first pastor would travel to Ethiopia on occasion. One day I was in his office and noticed that behind his desk in the corner was a wooden statue of an African tribal warrior. I asked him the story behind the statue. He said it was given to him by a tribal chieftain. He explained that it was a warrior spirit that was called upon to protect villages and crops. It was a gift to him because the chieftain said that my pastor had the spirit of a spirit warrior because he took a stand against Hell to protect villages, families, and the blessings God had given. My pastor cherished that gift until the day he died. Was it an idol? Technically yes. Was it a sin to own it and share its story? Nope.

I was talking to the Addingtons, missionaries to New Zealand. If I remember correctly they were serving the Maori people and they have this custom of distorting their faces by bugging out their eyes, bearing their teeth, sticking their tongues out, crouching, screaming, and dancing violently before battle, called a hacka. While Bro. Addington was preaching he touched on the subject of declaring war against Hell and fighting Satan through the power of Jesus Christ. He said it was terrifying, the entire group of men sitting in the front bounded to their feet and began a tribal hacka while cursing and binding Satan in the name of Jesus. Bro. Addington thought for a moment that they all had been possessed and were going to attack him! LOL But they ran around that meeting and it broke into a massive tribal hacka blowout service! And many Maori got the Holy Ghost. Give God praise!

Bro….you’re view of what’s “Christian” is filtered by what you know living in a Western culture heavily influenced by English customs, norms, and manners. I’m fully convinced that Heaven will see every tribe, nation, kindred and tongue praising God in their own language, with their own dance, with their own customs, with their own words of adoration, with their own music, and if our resurrected bodies ever wear anything other than white robes in eternity, I’m even convinced they’ll wear the garb of their culture in praise around the throne. I believe it will be a global praise of adoration that brings tears to my eyes just thinking about it. Let the Irish river dance for Jesus, the Maori hacka for Jesus, let the Tutu throw spears after church for Jesus….

Oooo….I feel the Holy Ghost as I’m typing this….here’s a song running through my head right now…

There's a growing root of bitterness
In the world today
From the heart of Johannesburg
To the ghettos of L.A.

A swelling violent undertow
Has gripped the soul of man
But an integrated cry of hope
Echoes across the land

I hear my brothers say
Come, everybody, it's time to start
To let the love of Jesus
In your heart

Every tongue and every race
All of God's children seek His face

Praise the Lord, everybody, praise the Lord
Praise the Lord, everybody, praise the Lord

People of promise take your place
Tell of His mercy and His grace
Lift up your voice to the sky
All of God's children testify

Praise the Lord, everybody, praise the Lord
Praise the Lord, everybody, praise the Lord

We worship You because You are Lord and King
We magnify You because You are the One who reigns
We glorify You because You always remain the same

We worship You because You are Lord and King
We magnify You because You are the One who reigns
We glorify You because You always remain the same

Praise the Lord, everybody, praise the Lord
Praise the Lord, everybody, praise the Lord

We got no time for hit and miss
The world is full of prejudice
You know we just ain't down with this, so come on now
Everybody priase the Lord

He inhabits our praises
Sin He erases
He wants to amaze us, so say this
Everybody praise the Lord

Praise the Lord, everybody, praise the Lord (x4)

Everybody, praise the Lord (x6)

(Everybody Praise the Lord, performed by Carmen)

Bro….you need to open up, expand your vision, allow God to be BIGGER, and stop living life on the run, [B]stop living life in fear[/B]. Live life in victory, dominion, celebration, and worship unto the King of All Kings. If some had their way we’d be secluded Pentecostal monks in some monastery somewhere. Living for Jesus would be like living on some sanctified version of Gilligan’s Island; no phone, no light, no motor car, not a single luxury. Like Pentecostal ascetics, as primitive as can be. lol



Never.

Please do not presume to know me. Trust me...I do not live my life in fear. I do not need to "expand" my vision to include heathen customs or to think that people practising them are Christian.

You talk of missionaries......I was taught by the greatest modern missionary for about 2 years, T.L. Osborn. He railed against missionaries who demanded western clothes and who force people to use a knife and fork. I get the concept...western does not mean Christian. But heathen practice does not mean Christian either, no matter how it is mixed with Jesus.

Truthfully, the "dominion" you write about has been practiced by Rome for centuries. To the point of idolatry, Indians in South America march into Catholic churches carrying their idol dolls in procession to the crucifix.

You imagine a "whole world" worship service in heaven....somehow I cannot imagine the Apostles doing fire dances and "lifting up babies" as a form of worship that harks back to infant sacrifice--a practice refered to in the Psalms and was abonimable.

You are fanciful in your thinking....but certainly not in the book. The Bible says, "Come out of her....." Not to take her and her customs and make them into a diluted worship. Sorry.....

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by U376977

Please do not presume to know me. Trust me...I do not live my life in fear. I do not need to "expand" my vision to include heathen customs or to think that people practising them are Christian.

You talk of missionaries......I was taught by the greatest modern missionary for about 2 years, T.L. Osborn. He railed against missionaries who demanded western clothes and who force people to use a knife and fork. I get the concept...western does not mean Christian. But heathen practice does not mean Christian either, no matter how it is mixed with Jesus.

Truthfully, the "dominion" you write about has been practiced by Rome for centuries. To the point of idolatry, Indians in South America march into Catholic churches carrying their idol dolls in procession to the crucifix.

You imagine a "whole world" worship service in heaven....somehow I cannot imagine the Apostles doing fire dances and "lifting up babies" as a form of worship that harks back to infant sacrifice--a practice refered to in the Psalms and was abonimable.

You are fanciful in your thinking....but certainly not in the book. The Bible says, "Come out of her....." Not to take her and her customs and make them into a diluted worship. Sorry.....

Well then....I'm just a thinner becauthe I put up a Christhmath tree. lol

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by U376977

Please do not presume to know me. Trust me...I do not live my life in fear. I do not need to "expand" my vision to include heathen customs or to think that people practising them are Christian.

I assure you...you keep non-Christian customs. Do you dress up for church? That's pagan.

You talk of missionaries......I was taught by the greatest modern missionary for about 2 years, T.L. Osborn. He railed against missionaries who demanded western clothes and who force people to use a knife and fork. I get the concept...western does not mean Christian. But heathen practice does not mean Christian either, no matter how it is mixed with Jesus.

Name one heathen practice you presume people observe? For example, the Christmas tree. If a tree worshiping pagan were to see us with a Christmas tree in my home they'd wonder why we weren't worshiping it. None of us worship trees, they're a DECORATION. They'd probably be offended because I would have reduced what they think should be a "god" to a mere decoration. lol

Truthfully, the "dominion" you write about has been practiced by Rome for centuries. To the point of idolatry, Indians in South America march into Catholic churches carrying their idol dolls in procession to the crucifix.

Yes, Rome went to the extreme of idolatry. But one thing Rome did do that we're failing to do....they Christianized an entire continent. Personally, I'm Irish (with Dutch, German, and English thrown in for spice) and proud of it. I proud of me European heritage. I have no problem with maintaining European cultural traditions. Yes, some are Christianized versions of old ways....but that's the deal....they're no longer those old ways. I wouldn't even know the first thing to chant to a Christmas tree. Maybe you're tempted to idolatry by it. Frankly, I'm not. And I think you're just uptight and wanting to control everyone or to be seen as holier than those of us who observe cultural holidays. Well, if that's will help you feel better, I'll say it....

You're more holy than me.

Now, I'm going to pick out a pumpkin to carve out with my little boy here in a few weeks.

You imagine a "whole world" worship service in heaven....somehow I cannot imagine the Apostles doing fire dances and "lifting up babies" as a form of worship that harks back to infant sacrifice--a practice refered to in the Psalms and was abonimable.

Bro...the Apostles wouldn't "fire dance" they were Jews. Now, I don't doubt some of their pagan converts kept certain days and customs that they didn't...else Paul wouldn't have addressed that in the book of Romans. Paul's point was that whatever we do, as long as it's not "sin"...do it unto the Lord.

Bro....as long as a baby isn't being sacrificed...it's not child sacrifice. The background decor will all be cultural. I'm not bothered by it. Now...throw the baby in the fire and I'll most likely want to shoot someone. (Didn't say that I would for sure....but I sure would want to.)

You are fanciful in your thinking....but certainly not in the book. The Bible says, "Come out of her....." Not to take her and her customs and make them into a diluted worship. Sorry.....

I think the spiritual concepts presented here are paranoid, view life as being under siege, and are frankly....BORING. Remind me never to bring someone to a church that thinks like this, I don't want them to think that all Apostolics are boring people.

The kingdom of God isn't meat, drink, holidays, or decorations....it's righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Now....this Christmas I'm going to eat meat traditionally sacrificed to idols, put up a tree, decorate the fire place, and have a glass of eggnog with the the misses after the little one's in bed...maybe some are weak in faith and will be offended. If that's the case, they'd best not visit our home.

Love, peace, and chicken grease....

Amen.

[U376977]

Originally Posted by U376977

You are fanciful in your thinking....but certainly not in the book. The Bible says, "Come out of her....." Not to take her and her customs and make them into a diluted worship. Sorry.....

Originally Posted by Aquila

I think the spiritual concepts presented here are paranoid, view life as being under siege, and are frankly....BORING. Remind me never to bring someone to a church that thinks like this, I don't want them to think that all Apostolics are boring people.


Amen.

Let the record indicate that you find the "spiritual" (not to mention Biblical) concepts of “Come out of her my people” as being “paranoid" and "view life as being under siege” and “boring.” Reminder, do not bring someone to an Apostolic church who believes in seperation and holiness, you would not want them to get bored. Take them to a church that believes in "any way you want" to worship. Where they will be happy and all will get along and the joy of the Lord will give them goose bumps...singing jumping and praising...doing as they please...as long as they are happy and above all not bored.

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Here’s the deal bro….we’re Gentiles, like the Romans. That means we have various ethnic holidays and observances. Unto me, because of my Irish heritage, I have customs, traditions, and days I might regard that you don’t if you’re of German or African heritage. But I regard these things days and customs as part of what I use to glorify God, redeeming my heritage. You don’t observe these things, again, unto the Lord. Maybe your faith is weak and I shouldn’t be so bold in my observances around you. Maybe if I eat meat sacrificed to idols or choose to carve a pumpkin, your faith and conscience is so weak you’d take offense and near stumble. If that is so bro, I’m truly sorry.

Wrong, again!

I'm not "gentile," I'm a Christian. See, that's your problem. You still see race as the issue. What you should be seeing is GRACE. Grace is not unmerited favor, but is favor that gives opportunity for a man or woman to do as they ought. When a person starts on a faulty foundation, the doctrine they build always slants worse than the Leaning Tower of Pisa. Your premise here, my dear brother, is tilting all over the place.

Maybe this will help set it straight?

Ephesians 2:11-19
(11) Wherefore remember, that ye being IN TIME PAST GENTILES IN THE FLESH, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
(12) That AT THAT TIME ye were without Christ, being ALIENS from the commonwealth of Israel, and STRANGERS from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
(13) BUT NOW in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off ARE MADE NIGH by the blood of Christ.
(14) For he is our peace, who hath MADE BOTH ONE, and hath BROKEN DOWN THE MIDDLE WALL OF PARTITION BETWEEN US;
(15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
(16) And that he might RECONCILE BOTH unto God in one body by the cross, HAVING SLAIN THE ENMITY thereby:
(17) And came and preached peace to you which WERE AFAR OFF, and to them that WERE NIGH.
(18) For through him WE BOTH have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
(19) NOW THEREFORE ye are NO MORE strangers and foreigners, but FELLOW CITIZENS with the saints, and of the household of God;

The issue is, in Christ, there is no Jewish, Samaritan, gentile, German, African, or whatever heritage (See Gal 3:26-28). A Christian’s heritage comes from the Lord. That’s why we’re “Born Again,” and because so, “ALL things old are passed away….”

Originally Posted by Aquila

But here’s something I firmly believe….some brethren use this “I’m a weaker brother” garbage to CONTROL others. I don’t think you’re as weak or offended as you let on.

Who said I am offended? What you believe or do not believe affects me not one iota.

Originally Posted by Aquila

For you, it’s a control issue. You want to be “holier” than your brethren and if they rejoice around a Christmas Tree on Christmas, enjoy a little eggnog, laugh, joke around, and cuddle up with their sweetheart (wife) in front of the fire place…you don’t know what to make of it.

Aquila, I would think you’re bigger than this.

First, where is it about me wanting to control anything? This is a FORUM. It is designed to talk back and forth about whatever subject is going on at the time. I did not start this thread. I also did not post anything here before you did. The problem you’re having is that you have no scripture for your post and are therefore trying—very weakly—to divert the blame to me.

Second, me wanting to be “holier” than someone else is IMPOSSIBLE!! You are again building on another of your faulty foundations. Look at this:

(1 Peter 1:15) But AS HE which hath called you is holy, SO BE YE holy in all manner of conversation;

Holiness is measured by how a man or woman compares to Jesus Christ, not by how they compare to another person. So again, what another person believes or doesn’t believe has NO affect on me.

You said: “if they rejoice around a Christmas Tree on Christmas, enjoy a little eggnog, laugh, joke around, and cuddle up with their sweetheart (wife) in front of the fire place…you don’t know what to make of it.” This just shows you have no idea what this subject is even about. If you did, you would not be thinking this way. Try rereading the title of the thread for a clue….

Originally Posted by Aquila

Bro…I believe in separating myself from “sinful” things and practices. It’s not a sin to choose a day to remember Christ’s birth. It’s not a sin to choose a day to remember his death. It’s not a sin to choose a day to remember the deaths of martyrs who gave all to preserve the translation of the Bible we cherish. It’s not a sin to carve a silly little pumpkin with your little boy. It’s not a sin to put up a Christmas tree and lift that little guy to put the star on top. It’s not a sin to light candles and put them in the window. It’s not a sin to have a little eggnog with the wife after the kids are in bed, put presents under the tree, and have a little romance beneath the Christmas lights. My faith is STRONG. Fearsome sometimes. I don’t FEAR meat sacrificed to idols or given days or customs. Frankly, I TAKE them. Paul wrote this….

II Corinthians 10:3-5

Wow, you don’t know the difference between Christmas and Passover? Again, faulty foundation, faulty doctrine.

Aquila, Passover is a biblically recognized day. There is MUCH evidence as to it being the day on which Jesus was crucified. But in comparison, December 25th has absolutely NO biblical evidence whatsoever for being the day of Jesus’ birth. What we do find overwhelming evidence for December 25th being the pagan celebration for Winter Solace. The Winter Solace is the day in which pagans recognize the "SUN" is "reBORN." It was a day that was recognized almost worldwide to worship various solar gods. Aquila, you really don’t know this?

I agree wholeheartedly that remembering Jesus birth is not a sin. But would you please tell me what a decorated evergreen tree, kissing under mistletoe, a Yule Log, or a weight-challenged white-bearded man in a red-suited has to do with Jesus’ birth? What you need to realize, which evidently you do not, is that remembering Jesus’ birth is one thing, but to do so by giving spiritual significance to pagan practices is a perversion of any such remembrance. Jesus stood against false doctrine and against idolatry. So how does it honor Him to incorporate both into a supposed celebration of His birth?

Originally Posted by Aquila

Bro…we are to tear down the strongholds of hell, every proud obstacle, philosophy, human reasoning, and capture their rebellious concepts and bring all things into obedience to CHRIST. It’s a DOMINION mandate.

Sounds great, so where’s the beef?

Aquila, shouting flowery statements while pounding your chest doesn’t make what you’re saying any truer. If you were sincere, you would not want to see any paganism in the church…none!

Originally Posted by Aquila

We make no compromise with “sin”. But what we’re talking about here isn’t a “sin”. Bro…if you ever bowed down and worshipped a Christmas Tree with pagan mantras or hymns and just can’t resist it when you’re around one…you clearly should avoid putting a Christmas Tree up in your home.

See, there you go; if you haven’t BOWED or WORSHIPPED the tree, then it’s okay. Hmmm… what about an idol? If you haven’t bowed or worshipped a brass Buddha, or a stone statue of Basal, or a depiction of Mary, would those also be okay to set-out in remembrance of Jesus?

But the bigger picture is that you make a pagan practice sacred the second you make it a central part of your remembrance of or celebration of Jesus. Once the tree, wreath, mistletoe, and Santa become “MUST HAVE’S,” then they are no longer just passive decorations. That is the danger. Men incorporate such images and make them part of their sacred worship to God. Brother, that is paganism to the core.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Holiness is separating one’s self from the “sinful” ways of this world. Holiness doesn’t mean drinking water all the time because the world loves Pepsi.

Cute. But downplaying the issue with trivialities does not diminish the true facts. Aquila, why did prophets speak against God's people intermingling with the paganism around them? Why did God strike down men and women for partaking in pagan practices? Why, if you're correct, did He change His opinion about mixing His people with such practices?

Originally Posted by Aquila

*Side Note* You might find it interesting that coffee has roots in ancient pagan practices among the Arabs. C’mon bro…if it’s a matter of holiness…lay off the coffee too. lol

I am a tea drinker, actually. But I know of no one that has to have coffee to celebrate or remember Jesus. That is why such arguments, though maybe seen as cute, are really just a diversion from the actual subject.







Also, ditch the Gene Edwards’ books on pagan practices of the church. He lists everything the church does as pagan, even having men working in ministry. But he never explains how that excludes him. After all, he travels the world teaching churches how not to have teachers teaching them doctrine. Sounds confusing to me…and we know who the author of that is….

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

But the bigger picture is that you make a pagan practice sacred the second you make it a central part of your remembrance of or celebration of Jesus.

Bro...I never said any of these traditions are "must haves". Nor are they central to remembering or celebrating Jesus. In fact we remember and celebrate Jesus every day of the year. I view holidays largely as fun and festivities. I don't think a Christmas tree is an absolute necessity, nor do I see Easter Eggs or Easter Baskets as a necessity. Fun and festive? Yes. Necessary? No. Central? No.

See, here's where you're thinking is all wrong...you assume because my family has fun with these things, we make them central. Bro....we've had lean holidays where we didn't even put up a tree and had few gifts...and we were still blessed with the reality of Jesus. So please....get off your high horse and relax. I'm not pagan. I don't worship a tree. I don't worship a Bunny.

And you might find this interesting, but the original "St. Nicholas", Bishop of Myra, may have been a Oneness believer. If you look at the records he was recorded as having attended Nicea. The Bishop of Myra got into a physical confrontation with Arius when Arius denied that Jesus was God. He attended the rest of the meetings...but on the final list of attendees who affirmed the Trinity...his name is missing. So either the records are incomplete....or Nicholas believed that Jesus was God...but not in the sense the Trinitarians envisioned it. Since he confronted Arius, he wasn't an Arian. That leaves one school of theology popular at the time....Modalism.

Though a lot of legend surrounds the man, the study of Nicholas is an interesting study really.

Oh...and did you know that the idea that Christ's birth was on the 25th of December is rooted in an ancient Jewish tradition? I'll tell you more if you're interested.

[TK Burk]

First you said...

Originally Posted by Aquila

Bro...I never said any of these traditions are "must haves". Nor are they central to remembering or celebrating Jesus.

And a few posts later you said...

Originally Posted by Aquila

We are to separate ourselves from the "sinful" ways of this world. Putting up a seasonal decoration isn't a sin.

What "season" are you referring to, Aquila?

You first claimed Christmas was all about remembering Jesus' birthday. You then listed all the "traditional" things that you enjoy doing for Christmas, like the tree, egg nog, and such. Then when I said it is paganism when you include such things into celebrating Jesus, you claimed you did not make them central. Hmmm... Now, you're calling them "seasonal decorations"?? And THAT is not making them central to your 'seasonal' celebration of Jesus' birth?? Oh, okay....

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Oh...and did you know that the idea that Christ's birth was on the 25th of December is rooted in an ancient Jewish tradition? I'll tell you more if you're interested.

Yes, I'd love to hear about this. As a matter of fact, an Orthodox Rabbi that's good friends with Bro. Benincasa wants to know about this as well.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Oh...and did you know that the idea that Christ's birth was on the 25th of December is rooted in an ancient Jewish tradition? I'll tell you more if you're interested.

My friend who is an Orthodox Rabbi and I were in a discussion today and Brother Burk had mention this above post to me prior to my talk with my friend. My friend wanted me to get your information. Can you please direct me to where I can find it?