2 swats puts Dad in court

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

It's clear scripturally the bible supports spanking or beating a child. The word beat has a more strong meaning today, but it's bible to discipline a child with stripes to the back. Of course, we don't want to injure the child. It must be dowe right and not out of anger.

BTW getting chastized is not suppose to be gentle.

Do you even have a clue as to what stripes were in the bible.

How deeply into the flesh to you recomend the flesh be ripped open?

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

Do you even have a clue as to what stripes were in the bible.

How deeply into the flesh to you recomend the flesh be ripped open?

I'm refering to strikes/swats not stripes in open wounds.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

I think you make a very important point. Not much teaching on parenting in church.

My upbringing consisted of a lot of yelling and tension. I am angry when I think about how I got into the church and gave my life to God, believing these godly people would lead me to do the right things. Instead, they twisted up my head so bad, I couldn't think straight. I was taught you had to be there every time the doors were open and also go to the weekend rallies because we were in the ministry. Being in the ministry, more was expected. We were at EVERYTHING! We were chastised if we were not at everything! I look at pictures of my kids with dark circles under thier eyes. No wonder they were misbehaving! They were sleep deprived! And what did they get because *I* deprived them of sleep because the *church* and *pastor* told me this was the right way to God? A spanking!! Grrrr!!!! And then we were criticized because our children were crying in the nursery!! This infuriates me. And the pastor preached that you were supposed to spank them! One time, the pastor told me in front of the whole congregation to take my child out of the service and spank her. I took her out but I sat in the nursery in defiance and refused to do so. In my mind, I wondered if I was wrong for doing so. It was one of the few times I defied my pastor. Some people will just blame me for being so slow, but in all honesty, neither my husband nor I had a clue what we were doing wrong. If I had it to do over, I would say forget your stupid church rules, I'm out of here! Of course, that is what we finally did after 19 years.

If you are going to take the Bible literally, you have to believe that the blueness of a wound does chase away evil in kids. Thank God I never read that verse until years later because I was taught to take the Bible very literally. There was a woman in my church who believed that you had to bruise your kids or they were not spanked. That is so messed up. I never believed that, but I spanked my kids way too much because I did not know how to discipline in love. I didn't even know it was an issue until years later. My mind was so filled with trying to figure out UPC culture, I always felt if I got myself straight, I would get my kids there.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

If there were more teaching from the church in regard to good parenting, and not just quick comments from the pulpit of "beat him with a rod--he won't die", I'd be less prone to object to this great support of spanking--even as a "command." (Which I don't believe it is.)

The problem is, I know too many ignorant church people who are abusive, and use scripture to back it up. I'm not picking on church people, but reasonably, the world AND our children expect more of us if we profess to serve Christ. It's enough to make me wish the church would teach against spanking altogether--because usually, it's not "spanking." It's plain old beating.

My husband grew up in a preacher's home and he and his siblings and his mother were severely abused by his father. All in the name of God. I've seen what that kind of twisted combination has done to that family. When you abuse your kids and blame it on a commandment from God, it's a whole new level of mind-bending. Kids don't emerge from that unscathed, and it definitely isn't beneficial in any way. I don't use the word abuse, lightly, either. I'm not referring to butt bruises, even though I would object to that in general.

Maybe if more churches would teach parents how to be Christian parents, it wouldn't be such a big deal. Whatever happened to applying these scriptures?

"Whatsoever you do, do it heartily, as unto the Lord." and, "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."


That makes me take how I treat my children VERY seriously.

This is all so true. And yet, when a person tries to walk away from things they are taught.....you are put back to square one....do not touch God's anointed.....who are you to question the man of God.......if you leave this church you are not right with God.....ultimately child abuse happens in the name of God.

[Pragmatist]

Originally Posted by ILG

I look at pictures of my kids with dark circles under thier eyes. No wonder they were misbehaving! They were sleep deprived!

Another thing that really bothers me. We keep kids up past their bedtime because we have to be in church and then punish them when they misbehave. It's setting your kids up for failure.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Pragmatist

Another thing that really bothers me. We keep kids up past their bedtime because we have to be in church and then punish them when they misbehave. It's setting your kids up for failure.

Yes, absolutely true. I am incensed when I think that me, at the age of 20 years old and my husband 19 when we had our first baby, fresh out of the world, were taught that this was the way to raise kids. Deprive them of sleep and then smack them when they misbehave. It is definately setting them up for failure. And then let's criticize the parents when their kids don't behave on top of it. And then, let's criticize the parents if they decide the pastor is wrong and tell them they are going to go to hell for touching God's anointed.

[MarcBee]

Originally Posted by tstew

....Either way, when I see parents hitting their children out of frustration, without being in control of their emotions, or as a impulsive reaction I cringe. In those cases it may be argued that you are teaching your children to hit for the wrong reasons. When I was growing up, corporal punishment was administered as if it were the result of a court martial, not in frustration, not undisciplined, not in the heat of the moment, and always after it was understood by me why it was necessary.

That is what my attitude about spanking, which seemed more common 30 or more years ago, even to the point of cliche'-- "Son, this is going to hurt ME more than it hurts YOU." (spank, spank...) I vaguely remember an episode of a mid 60s "Dennis the Menace" episode where after hearing the above platitude from his father, Dennis manages to secretly shove some paper plates down his britches to ensure an easier outcome. (Or maybe that was on "My Three Sons" ?)

My intent in this thread was _not_ "How should Christians discipline children?" But was my fault in poorly framing question, especially since I paired the question with a current news story where Pastor dad was obviously wrong.

Thanks, responses have been a good sonar ping to help support my (inconsequential) theories about how the church (church loosely defined) is constantly reinterpreting Biblical truth (first) in the light of its own cultural landscape, in this case, "modern American thought." Starting maybe 40 years ago and further back, many Christians would have boldly and gladly classified themselves into my first suggested category, "Corporal punishment is a God given right and I am (or should be) therefore prepared to be a felon if reported." But today, not so much. A bruise on the fanny was not such a crime 50 or 100 or 150 years ago. Does the present legal landscape make us hedge our bets? Does God sometimes enlighten secular society first, knowing it will filter over to the church? Who is influencing whom, the world the church, or the church the world, overall? Many good and forward influences by the church through history and upon history come to mind, ie, Christian thought (Protestants) activism brought the abolition of slavery in Europe and eventually USA. Was this God at work using His Biblically thinking people, who persuaded their world for good? If you are a strict, historical-thread Act 2:38 believer, you have to lump all these mainstream Christian activists into HELL, correct?

Are there any comparable social issues today where the church is changing the world more than culture or popular thought is obviously changing (your) church? "What have ya done for us lately?" (the world could say.) Apostolics have more Truth, but is that converting toward a better society, at least compared with some of the grand fights others have fought who didn't have so much truth? Or is it all about souls and *having* the truth? Perhaps Revival awaits a healthy amount of activism such as Catholics demonstrate concerning abortion. (?)

I digress, back to child spanking. The march toward anti spank laws (spanking of ANY kind, especially premeditated, read below) seems inevitable. Obviously those who already believe there are "better ways" than spanking will have nothing to fear. What about the rest of you? Ready to go to jail for your beliefs? Two excerpts below are bills introduced in CA and Canada--2008. Not sure either has completely passed, or will, this go 'round.

Toronto, June 2008
<<The bill, supported by the Liberal majority, quietly passed third reading in the Senate on Tuesday night despite Conservative objections to the legislation....
Bill S-209, which needs House approval to be made into law, proposes to eliminate Section 43 of Canada's Criminal Code, which allows parents, teachers and caregivers to use reasonable force to discipline a child and correct their behavior. Routine discipline and using spanking as premeditated punishment wouldn't be allowed. "No corporal punishment would be allowed, either by an educator, the mother, the father or someone acting for them," Hervieux-Payette said.>>

Sacramento, California, 2008,

The California Family Council reports:
<<Assembly Bill 2943 (Lieber) was approved today by the Assembly Committee on Public Safety. If approved by the Legislature and signed by the governor, the bill would make the ordinary practice of spanking a child by a parent a criminal act. This legislation, veiled as a prohibition of corporal punishment and child abuse, makes no distinction between an acceptable form of parental discipline – a spanking – and the violent act of “brandishing a deadly weapon upon a child.”>>

SOS

[HappyTown]

Well I'm older, I can tell you this much, when I'm in a store shopping and I hear kids being brats, I want slap the parents!!!!!