The point being if an organization claims hundreds of thousands getting the Holy Ghost each year, why are they failing to crack a million constituents?
I'm not suggesting those people aren't getting the Holy Ghost. I'm suggesting that the upci is like a person with diarhea. The person coming in the front door leaves through the back door almost as quick as they came in.
I can go to any church with new converts. In six months to a year, over half of them would be gone. It's not that noticable when hundreds and thousands are baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost every year. But when a church is struggling to get a dozen saved every year, a 50% attrition rate is harmful.
Just out of curiousity, is there any organization of people that you find to be perfect, devoid of any sinful behavior, or any negative people?
I am saddened by your experiences, whatever they may be, but at the same time I seriously doubt that even in your experiences with the organization you didn't run into people who had genuine encounters with God. I believe that you can choose to focus on whatever you wish. I have been blessed to have personal relationships with some of the greatest, godliest people in the world...who do a tremendous amount of good under the banner of the UPCI. I'm talking about people whose exploits are on par with everything we have read about in the New Testament church. I am on record even here discussing things that I think are issues within the org, but I strongly resist any notion that it is difficult to experience God in the org or that the majority of the people fall into the categories that you laid out.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
My response was it is difficult in an upci environment to have a real encounter with Jesus. Not impossible. If the Kings of Leon had a real encounter with Jesus, it is possible they could have had it outside the gospel according to upci.
For others to suggests although unintentionally that a real encounter with Jesus can only happen in a upci environment is ridiculous. That is why they think my posts are contradictory.
k4h posts does raise a few interesting questions? does he suggest a real encounter with Jesus is a guarantee one doesn't backslide? Is this a subconcious belief in "once saved always saved"?
If an alcoholic falls off the wagon, does that negate the positive experiences of previous times of sobriety?
The more I think about, the more I think the term experience needs clarity. Since k4h brought up the experience issue, it is only proper we allow him to clarify what he means by experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by keith4him
If you read a little about their history, being dragged all over the country, living by faith, income tied to meetings, put on the pretend thing around people so you don't mess with getting Dad meetings canceled, etc. After a while it plays on a kids head, emotional makeup and eventually resent the ministry. Not in every case. Throw in whatever Dad did, most likely some inconsistencies you get a receipe for a group of kids not wanting whatever troubled their family so much. Ministry and Revivalism doesn't equate with Jesus, most likely they never really encountered Jesus.
__________________
A religious spirit allows people to tolerate hatred and anger under the guise of passion and holiness. Bill Johnson
Legalism has no pity on people. Legalism makes my opinion your burden, makes opinion your boundary, makes my opinion your obligation-Lucado
Some get spiritual because they see the light. Others because they feel the heat.Ray Wylie Hubbard
Definition of legalism- Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. TV
My response was it is difficult in an upci environment to have a real encounter with Jesus. Not impossible. If the Kings of Leon had a real encounter with Jesus, it is possible they could have had it outside the gospel according to upci.
For others to suggests although unintentionally that a real encounter with Jesus can only happen in a upci environment is ridiculous. That is why they think my posts are contradictory.
k4h posts does raise a few interesting questions? does he suggest a real encounter with Jesus is a guarantee one doesn't backslide? Is this a subconcious belief in "once saved always saved"?
If an alcoholic falls off the wagon, does that negate the positive experiences of previous times of sobriety?
The more I think about, the more I think the term experience needs clarity. Since k4h brought up the experience issue, it is only proper we allow him to clarify what he means by experience.
Please keep your highlighted portion of my original post in context. In the light of the travel schedule, the unique role/challenges of traveling ministry while taking care of family. Combined with some weaknesses of the father combined with other issues that are only inherit in that type of ministry.
There is the possiblilty that these young men only saw and had an expereince in revialism at it's best and worst without encountering a real and lasting relationship with Jesus who is an expert of saving people from their sins.
This is isolated from the larger issue you brought up where you indicted the whole UPCI, which you were called on. No thanks, Don't bring me in to your mess. I may not agree with the organization in some areas, but as a whole they are good people, I owe my salvation experience to men in it and I will always respect and fondness if not love for my family of heritage.
__________________
Please pray for India
My personal mission is to BRING people into a right relationship with God, GROW them up to maturity and SEND them back into the world to minister.
Why do you think I copied the entire post? I'm not going to Katie Couric your post. I don't hack posts to manipulate a point. With that said, your last comment insinuates people who have really encountered Jesus don't fall off the wagon.
You bring up a good point. Are we mistaking emotionalism for a real encounter with Jesus? I hate to disappoint Thad, but shockamoo'ing isn't indictative of real encounter with Christ.
I agree with you the deck was stacked against the boys. They had two strikes against them before they had a chance. Sort of like Wally Pipp going up against Nolan Ryan.
I never said there were not good people in the upci. The infrastructure however is designed to promote failure. The restoration process is subjective. And too many innocent people get hurt. Until the system changes, there will more Kings of Leons we will grieve over.
Which brings me back to my original questions. What do you consider as a real encounter with Christ? Do you propose a real encounter with Christ innoculates one from falling away? I may be throwing you a lifeline with this question, but do you believe it could take more than one real encounter with Jesus to keep from backsliding?
Quote:
Originally Posted by keith4him
Please keep your highlighted portion of my original post in context. In the light of the travel schedule, the unique role/challenges of traveling ministry while taking care of family. Combined with some weaknesses of the father combined with other issues that are only inherit in that type of ministry.
There is the possiblilty that these young men only saw and had an expereince in revialism at it's best and worst without encountering a real and lasting relationship with Jesus who is an expert of saving people from their sins.
This is isolated from the larger issue you brought up where you indicted the whole UPCI, which you were called on. No thanks, Don't bring me in to your mess. I may not agree with the organization in some areas, but as a whole they are good people, I owe my salvation experience to men in it and I will always respect and fondness if not love for my family of heritage.
__________________
A religious spirit allows people to tolerate hatred and anger under the guise of passion and holiness. Bill Johnson
Legalism has no pity on people. Legalism makes my opinion your burden, makes opinion your boundary, makes my opinion your obligation-Lucado
Some get spiritual because they see the light. Others because they feel the heat.Ray Wylie Hubbard
Definition of legalism- Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. TV
When discussing backsliders and their chance of salvation, I think it is good to point out that it is very difficult for a backslider to die and go to hell, imo.
The Grace and Mercy of God has a way of reigning His people in, convicting them, and drawing them to Him.
People who once knew the Lord would have to purposely and consciously reject God repeatedly in order to go to hell.
God is married to the backslider and He hates divorce.
__________________
"The choices we make reveal the true nature of our character."
Why do you think I copied the entire post? I'm not going to Katie Couric your post. I don't hack posts to manipulate a point. With that said, your last comment insinuates people who have really encountered Jesus don't fall off the wagon.
You bring up a good point. Are we mistaking emotionalism for a real encounter with Jesus? I hate to disappoint Thad, but shockamoo'ing isn't indictative of real encounter with Christ.
I agree with you the deck was stacked against the boys. They had two strikes against them before they had a chance. Sort of like Wally Pipp going up against Nolan Ryan.
I never said there were not good people in the upci. The infrastructure however is designed to promote failure. The restoration process is subjective. And too many innocent people get hurt. Until the system changes, there will more Kings of Leons we will grieve over.
Which brings me back to my original questions. What do you consider as a real encounter with Christ? Do you propose a real encounter with Christ innoculates one from falling away? I may be throwing you a lifeline with this question, but do you believe it could take more than one real encounter with Jesus to keep from backsliding?
A realization that I was a sinner, Jesus took my sins, gave me new life and he is the only reason to live. Not another performance, altar call, numbers to get the next meeting, the constant struggle of going from one meeting to another, the weaknesses and most likely inconsistent role models, that is what in my opinion with such limited information that we have. I feel sad discussing them, I should be praying for their restoration and salvation.
__________________
Please pray for India
My personal mission is to BRING people into a right relationship with God, GROW them up to maturity and SEND them back into the world to minister.
I doubt if anyone thinks discussing problems is "bitterness." It's your tone. You don't seem to understand the difference, so I suppose nothing can be done to fix it. Oh well.
Well ... doesn't bother me.
I don't mind being lumped in there even though I don't think I post with a persecution complex. I mostly just do unvarnished reminiscing.
Two things I find most humorous and a little sad posting on these forums the last four years.
1) Ole time pentecostals play the "bitterness" card every time a thread like ILG's is started. They think it's a panacea to answer anything they don't have an answer for.
2) When someone brings up an obvious problem in ole time pentecost, those who fancy themselves Intellectual Defenders of the Faith immediately scream: "The Baptists have the same problem!!" "The Catholics have the same problem!!"
Well, you claim to be far superior to them because you have the "truth" and "the power of the Holy Ghost."
So ... by its own claimants, ole time pentecost should not be having the problems other religious movements do since baptists, catholics etc. don't have "The Truth."
But funny how you guys run for cover at the first sign of trouble by saying you're just like all the other denominations.
My response was it is difficult in an upci environment to have a real encounter with Jesus. Not impossible. If the Kings of Leon had a real encounter with Jesus, it is possible they could have had it outside the gospel according to upci.
For others to suggests although unintentionally that a real encounter with Jesus can only happen in a upci environment is ridiculous. That is why they think my posts are contradictory.
k4h posts does raise a few interesting questions? does he suggest a real encounter with Jesus is a guarantee one doesn't backslide? Is this a subconcious belief in "once saved always saved"?
If an alcoholic falls off the wagon, does that negate the positive experiences of previous times of sobriety?
The more I think about, the more I think the term experience needs clarity. Since k4h brought up the experience issue, it is only proper we allow him to clarify what he means by experience.
I think people my age(36) and younger that have been raised in church have not had thier own experience. All you had to do to is pretend you was prayin jump around a few times scream a little and the evangelist, pastor and parents would leave you alone. Then after church you can get pregnant in the back seat of the pastors sons car.
I think people my age(36) and younger that have been raised in church have not had thier own experience. All you had to do to is pretend you was prayin jump around a few times scream a little and the evangelist, pastor and parents would leave you alone. Then after church you can get pregnant in the back seat of the pastors sons car.
Wow, it didn't take you long to catch on did it. Man this is exactly how it was in my church.
Wow, it didn't take you long to catch on did it. Man this is exactly how it was in my church.
Yea and the ones of us that just wanted to be "regular" kids caught the heat. We got hollered at, shook silly ,clawed,and neck injuries from preachers pushing so hard on our foreheads tryin to get the demons out. But on the good side if Sis. Whatshername was there you would get a good back massage.
Linear Mode
