Some opinions wanted

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by freeatlast

You all want to be APOSTOLIC ????? Please then , find where they ever passed offering plates in every gathering

Good point!

[Margies3]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

Our church board determines the salary I make. There is NO way I would take all the tithes, neither do I believe a pastor has a right to them. I'm not in this to get rich. However, the good folks @NLC desire for my family to be taken care of, and for that I am grateful! My wife and I have always been in the top givers of NLC and we are not the top wage earners. I believe in giving to what one believes in and I believe in our local church!

MOW, you are very much like my pastor in this regard. He makes a decent salary. Actually a very decent salary. We have at least one or two people in our congregation who are worth a million or more. So he doesn't make near as much as them. LOL. But he makes as much as or more than most of us. We have alot of engineers, etc. in our church, so that gives you some idea of an average salary.

In our case, our pastor doesn't even know how much anyone gives. He does know the TOTAL tithes and offerings at the end of the year. And the books are audited yearly so we know everything is honest and above board.

But he is also a very, very generous giver. He doesn't brag about it ever. But we know the heart he has for missions, so we all know that when our missions offering each month is several thousand dollars (which is always is), that is because Pastor Andy put in probably half of that!

He teaches us by his example. His actions speak much louder than his words ever could.

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Margies3

I realize that many teach that the Biblical mandate is for the pastor to receive ALL of the tithes. My experience tho is that in the smaller churches, where all of the tithe isn't even enough for the pastor to live on, the pastor usually takes NONE of the tithes. Instead he finds a job and pastors part time. That's not really best for anyone involved. But it does happen. [/quote[

You are right...it does happen and it is not the best for anyone involved. Most small churches never break out of being small churches. Part of the reason is in this area. They may even sing that old song about how we take one step and God takes two, but in practicality they never take the first step to trust God.

We are a small church...less than 50 members. Most of our people are retired and on what the world would call a "fixed income." However the Pastor is full time and we send about 17% of our gross in missions support.

If people would only understand that you really can't out give God.

the only pastors I have ever known who took all of the tithe, pastored large churches. In those cases, those pastors could and did end up making alot of money. FORTUNATELY, in my experience, those are few and far between.[/quote]

While I don't endorse this method I also don't oppose it. I definitely have no problem with a Pastor making A LOT of money as long as money don't control him.

[/quote]So how much should a pastor's salary be? I don't think there is any one right answer to that question. He definately should not be expected to live at poverty level. Definately NOT! Should he make double the amount of the average person in his congregation? In most cases, I'd say probably not. Only because that tends to breed resentment. That can't be healthy for the ministry of a church. But should he make less than the average family in his church? Certainly not.[/quote]

I agree that there is not any one right answer. Heard one person talk about the 12 Tribes and their inheritance. The Levi's didn't get an inheritance but received a 10th of the other 11 tribes. This would put them living slightly better than the average. Not a bad rationale.

The IRS has a publication of recommended salaries based on geographic area (I live in California so the salary would need to be much higher than someone living in Wy), gross income, and size of church. While I don't typically look to the government for help it is actually a very generous allocation and sets a good standard. Not to mentions keeps you from getting in trouble with the government.

So see, in my opinion, if you're in this to get rich, then you need to get out.

Well, yes and no.

If we are speaking about motive I absolutely agree with you, but the Word also says that God delights in the prosperity of His servants. Many block the blessings of God because of some false religious humility that if we are prospering we are obviously greedy.

I am a giver, but I am also a receiver. I have no problem "getting rich" because it enables me to fund the ministry.

That's not what God calls people for. He calls them so they can minister to the sheep. But if the sheep are looking at what the pastor is driving or living in or wearing or vacationing at, and it gets in the way of them hearing the voice of God from that pastor, then well.................. is that pleasing to God?

Key being "gets in the way"

[HeavenlyOne]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Would it make a difference if he was in Hawaii, or Florida? Why does it matter where he goes on vacation? I'm not getting what the issue is there.

Or is it a problem because the church paid for the pastor's vacation to the Caribbean? I don't see that as being a problem. Pastoring is as 24-7 job, so if the church wants to bless the Pastor and his wife for their contribution of time and labor to the church, I don't see what the issue is.

Besides, we dont know when was the last time he even took a vacation. Some pastors go looong periods of time without taking some time off, or getting away on vacation, so if the church wants to send them on a trip, I dont think thats's necessarily a big deal. We dont know the whole story on this, so I dont think we should allow ourselves to jump to improper conclusions.

Good points, TR.

[jaxfam6]

Personally I would be very uncomfortable in a service like that. I might not leave but I would not be comfortable. You take an offering once and maybe twice for a special reason but then having them announce the 'special' item for the pastors landscaping in a service with lots of visitors is not wise. Also the raffle being talked about and tickets sold during the service, if that is what it was, is really out there.
I would probably not walk out but I would not visit again most likely.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

Makes me nervous to see a thread where Rhoni is asking for opinions......

Makes me nervious to see a thread started by Rhoni wherein she is thinking like me......

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Would it make a difference if he was in Hawaii, or Florida? Why does it matter where he goes on vacation? I'm not getting what the issue is there.

Or is it a problem because the church paid for the pastor's vacation to the Caribbean? I don't see that as being a problem. Pastoring is as 24-7 job, so if the church wants to bless the Pastor and his wife for their contribution of time and labor to the church, I don't see what the issue is.

Besides, we dont know when was the last time he even took a vacation. Some pastors go looong periods of time without taking some time off, or getting away on vacation, so if the church wants to send them on a trip, I dont think thats's necessarily a big deal. We dont know the whole story on this, so I dont think we should allow ourselves to jump to improper conclusions.

So you think "Church" is the time and place to have 4 solicitations for funds one of which was a raffle (gambling)?

BTW if Pastoring is a 24/7 job what is being a saint that get's calls or text messages all times of the day and night to pray for this person or that person, teach bible studies, witness to souls, show up early for prayer and whatever else a saint is expected to do and to shell out money not once, not twice, not even three times but 4 times in a place and time that is supposed to be about prayer, worship,evangelism, edification and other such things?

[Neck]

Originally Posted by Margies3

THANK YOU for recognizing this fact!! It seems like far too often, the saints who give their time and talents after they've worked their full 8-10 hours, are left with little or no recognition at all. NOT THAT WE DO THINGS FOR RECOGNITION. But it's nice to know that every now and then, someone sees what is going on.

I'm not opposed to rewarding a pastor. Don't get me wrong. I appreciate my pastor. We will give towards his Christmas bonus, as we have every year. We'll put in for his birthday gift and his wife's gift and sometimes even his kid's gifts. But at the same time, sometimes I think that if the pastor is making the same kind of salary as most of those in his congregation (which is true in many, many cases today. And should be true in all!), then if he wants to go on a vacation, shouldn't he be able to save money out of his salary to fund that vacation, just like I would have to do? Nobody's giving us a free trip anywhere.

And before you say, "oh but his job is 24/7", let me remind you that if you are married to a Volunteer Firefighter (as I am), he is on duty 24/7 as well. In fact, there have been more times than I can count that he has had to leave his regular paying job in order to come home and fight a fire. Then had to make up those hours on Saturday.

So yes, I'll give towards his Christmas gift, and his birthday gift if they do one. But no, I absolutely will not give towards a luxurious vacation for him. Sorry. That's just my humble opinion, for what it's worth

I have been in the same boat. The technology that I sell to Hospitals does not wait for 8:00AM or care if it is Christmas or New Years....

The one other point to make.

We all make choices to be what we do.

Even pastors.....

If they can't handle or like the 24/7 get into another line of work....

[Praxeas]

I think there are excesses in this area and I agree rarely does a saint get sent to some nice place....the best they can hope for is Fresno or Bakersfield California, however at the same time I have to say my Pastor does not get enough. But the reason for that is not because I think Pastors should live like spoiled kings over God's heritage. The reason is because he really does not get enough and has had to work part time to suppliment his income.

[Neck]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I think there are excesses in this area and I agree rarely does a saint get sent to some nice place....the best they can hope for is Fresno or Bakersfield California, however at the same time I have to say my Pastor does not get enough. But the reason for that is not because I think Pastors should live like spoiled kings over God's heritage. The reason is because he really does not get enough and has had to work part time to suppliment his income.

Maybe he should write a book and have the church print it?

I knew many a minister growing up that told my dad.

I work part-time cause the saints know they can't bother me when I am work...